1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
432
433
434
435
436
437
438
439
440
441
442
443
444
445
446
447
448
449
450
451
452
453
454
455
456
457
458
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
468
469
470
471
472
473
474
475
476
477
478
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486
487
488
489
490
491
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500
501
502
503
504
505
506
507
508
509
510
511
512
513
514
515
516
517
518
519
520
521
522
523
524
525
526
527
528
529
530
531
532
533
534
535
536
537
538
539
540
541
542
543
544
545
546
547
548
549
550
551
552
553
554
555
556
557
558
559
560
561
562
563
564
565
566
567
568
569
570
571
572
573
574
575
576
577
578
579
580
581
582
583
584
585
586
587
588
589
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
597
598
599
600
601
602
603
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613
614
615
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625
626
627
628
629
630
631
632
633
634
635
636
637
638
639
640
641
642
643
644
645
646
647
648
649
650
651
652
653
654
655
656
657
658
659
660
661
662
663
664
665
666
667
668
669
670
671
672
673
674
675
676
677
678
679
680
681
682
683
684
685
686
687
688
689
690
691
692
693
694
695
696
697
698
699
700
701
702
703
704
705
706
707
708
709
710
711
712
713
714
715
716
717
718
719
720
721
722
723
724
725
726
727
728
729
730
731
|
[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 Free Software Foundation,
Inc."]]
[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable
id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this
document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or
any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant
Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license
is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation
License|/fdl]]."]]"""]]
[[!tag open_issue_gnumach open_issue_hurd]]
This is a collection of resources concerning *user-space device drivers*.
Also see [[device drivers and IO systems]].
[[community/gsoc/project ideas/driver glue code]].
[[!toc levels=2]]
# Issues
## IRQs
* Can be modeled using [[RPC]]s.
* Security considerations: IRQ sharing.
* *Omega0* paper defines an interface.
* As is can be read in the *Mach 3 Kernel Principles*, there is an *event
object* facility in Mach that can be used for having user-space tasks react
to IRQs. However, at least in GNU Mach, that code (`kern/eventcount.c`)
doesn't seem functional at all and isn't integrated properly in the kernel.
* IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-29
< antrik> regarding performance of userspace drivers, there is one
thing that really adds considerable overhead: interrupt
handling. whether this is relevant very much depends on the hardware
in question. when sending many small packets over gigabit ethernet,
it might be noticable; in most other cases it's irrelevant
< youpi> some cards support interrupt coalescin
< youpi> could be supported by DDE too
## DMA
* Security considerations.
* I/O MMU.
### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-15
<carli2> hi. does hurd support mesa?
<braunr> carli2: software only, but yes
<carli2> :(
<carli2> so you did not solve the problem with the CS checkers and GPU DMA
for microkernels yet, right?
<braunr> cs = ?
<carli2> control stream
<carli2> the data sent to the gpu
<braunr> no
<braunr> and to be honest we're not currently trying to
<carli2> well, a microkernel containing cs checkers for each hardware is
not a microkernel any more
<braunr> the problem is having the ability to check
<braunr> or rather, giving only what's necessary to delegate checking to
mmus
<carli2> but maybe the kernel could have a smaller interface like a
function to check if a memory block is owned by a process
<braunr> i'm not sure what you refer to
<carli2> about DMA-capable devices you can send messages to
<braunr> carli2: dma must be delegated to a trusted server
<carli2> linux checks the data sent to these devices, parses them and
checks all pointers if they are in a memory range that the client is
allowed to read/write from
<braunr> the client ?
<carli2> in linux, 3d drivers are in user space, so the kernel side checks
the pointer sent to the GPU
<youpi> carli2: mach could do that as well
<braunr> well, there is a rather large part in kernel space too
<carli2> so in hurd I trust some drivers to not do evil things?
<braunr> those in the kernel yes
<carli2> what does "in the kernel" mean? afaik a microkernel only has
memory manager and some basic memory sharing and messaging functionality
<braunr> did you read about the hurd ?
<braunr> mach is considered an hybrid kernel, not a true microkernel
<braunr> even with all drivers outside, it's still an hybrid
<youpi> although we're to move some parts into userlands :)
<youpi> braunr: ah, why?
<braunr> youpi: the vm part is too large
<youpi> ok
<braunr> the microkernel dogma is no policy inside the kernel
<braunr> "except scheduling because it's very complicated"
<braunr> but all modern systems have moved memory management outisde the
kernel, leaving just the kernel abstraction inside
<braunr> the adress space kernel abstraction
<braunr> and the two components required to make it work are what l4re
calls region mappers (the rough equivalent of our vm_map), which decides
how to allocate regions in an address space
<braunr> and the pager, like ours, which are already external
<carli2> i'm not a OS developer, i mostly develop games, web services and
sometimes I fix gpu drivers
<braunr> that was just FYI
<braunr> but yes, dma must be considered something privileged
<braunr> and the hurd doesn't have the infrastructure you seem to be
looking for
## I/O Ports
* Security considerations.
## PCI and other buses
* Security considerations: sharing.
## Latency of doing RPCs
* [[GNU Mach|microkernel/mach/gnumach]] is said to have a high overhead when
doing RPC calls.
## System Boot
A similar problem is described in
[[community/gsoc/project_ideas/unionfs_boot]], and needs to be implemented.
### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-27
< braunr> btw, was there any formulation of the modifications required to
have disk drivers in userspace ?
< braunr> (which would obviously need something like
initrd/initramfs/whatever and may also need the root file system not to
be the first task started)
< braunr> hm actually, we may not need initrd
< braunr> the boot loader could just load more modules
< antrik> braunr: I have described all that in my thesis report... in
German :-(
< braunr> and the boot scripts could be adjusted to pass around the right
ports
< Tekk_> braunr: yeah, we could probably load a module that kciks us into
userspace and starts the disk driver
< braunr> modules are actualy userspace executables
< Tekk_> ah
< Tekk_> so what's the issue?
< Tekk_> oh! I'm thinking the ext2fs server, which is already in userspce
< braunr> change the file systems to tell them which underlying disk driver
to use
< Tekk_> mhm
< braunr> s/disk/storage/
#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-04-25
<youpi> btw, remember the initrd thing?
<youpi> I just came across task.c in libstore/ :)
#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-06-24
<youpi> we added a new initrd command to gnumach, to expose a new mach
device, which ext2fs can open and unzip
<youpi> we consider replacing that with simply putting the data in a dead
process
<youpi> s/process/task
<youpi> and let ext2fs read data from the task, and kill it when done
<teythoon> ok
<youpi> alternatively, tmps would work with an initial .tar.gz payload
<youpi> that would be best for memory usage
<youpi> tmpfs*
<teythoon> can't we replace the initrd concept with sub/neighbourhood?
<youpi> setting up tmpfs with an initial payload could be done with a
bootstrap subhurd
<teythoon> yes
<youpi> but it seems to me that having tmpfs being able to have an initial
payload is interesting
<teythoon> is there any advantage of the tmpfs translator prefilled with a
tarball over ext2fs with copy & bunzip?
<youpi> memory usage
<youpi> ext2fs with copy&bunzip takes memory for zeroes
<youpi> and we have to forecast how much data might be stored
<youpi> (if writable)
<teythoon> ah sure
<teythoon> but why would it have to be in the tmpfs translator? I why not
start the translator and have tar extract stuff there?
<teythoon> with the livecd I had trouble replacing the root translator, but
when using subhurds that shouldn't be a prwoblem at all
<youpi> I don't have a real opinion on this
<youpi> except that people don't usually like initrd :)
<braunr> 12:43 < teythoon> but why would it have to be in the tmpfs
translator? I why not start the translator and have tar extract stuff
there?
<braunr> that sounds an awful lot like an initramfs
<teythoon> yes, exactly, without actually having an initramfs of course
<braunr> yep
<braunr> i actually prefer that way too
<teythoon> a system on a r/o isofs cannot do much, but it can do this
<braunr> on the other hand, i wouldn't spend much time on a virtio disk
driver for now
<braunr> the hurd as it is can't boot on a device that isn't managed by the
kernel
<braunr> we'd need to change the boot protocol
[[virtio]].
#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-06-28
<teythoon> I'm tempted to redo a livecd, simpler and without the initrd
hack that youpi used for d-i
<braunr> initrd hack ?
<braunr> you mean more a la initramfs then ?
<teythoon> no, I thought about using a r/o isofs translator, but instead of
fixing that one up with a r/w overlay and lot's of firmlinks like I used
to, it would just start an ext2fs translator with copy on an image stored
on the iso and start a subhurd
<braunr> why a subhurd ?
<teythoon> neighbourhurd even
<teythoon> b/c back in the days I had trouble replacing /
<braunr> yes, that's hard
<teythoon> subhurd would take of that for free
<braunr> are you sure ?
<teythoon> somewhat
<braunr> i'm not, but this requires thorough thinking
<braunr> and i'm not there yet
<teythoon> y would it not?
<teythoon> just start a subhurd and let that one take over the console and
let the user and d-i play nicely in that environment
<teythoon> no hacks involved
<braunr> because it would require sharing things between the two system
instances, and that's not easy
<teythoon> no but the bootstrap system does nothing after launching the
subhurd
<teythoon> I mean yes, technically true, but why would it be hard to share
with someone who does nothing?
<braunr> the context isn't well defined enough to clearly state anything
<braunr> if you don't use the resources of the first hurd, that's ok
<braunr> otherwise, it may be easy or not, i don't know yet
<teythoon> you think it's worth a shot and see what issues crop up?
<braunr> sure
<braunr> definitely
<teythoon> it doesn't sound complicated at all
<braunr> it's easy enough to the point we see something goes wrong or works
completely
<braunr> so worth testin
<teythoon> cool :)
### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-17
<bddebian> OK, here is a stupid question I have always had. If you move
PCI and disk drivers in to userspace, how do do initial bootstrap to get
the system booting?
<braunr> that's hard
<braunr> basically you make the boot loader load all the components you
need in ram
<braunr> then you make it give each component something (ports) so they can
communicate
### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-12
<antrik> braunr: so, about booting with userspace disk drivers
<antrik> after rereading the chapter in my thesis, I see that there aren't
really all than many interesting options...
<antrik> I pondered some variants involving a temporary boot filesystem
with handoff to the real root FS; but ultimately concluded with another
option that is slightly less elegant but probably gets a much better
usefulness/complexity ratio:
<antrik> just start the root filesystem as the first process as we used to;
only hack it so that initially it doesn't try to access the disk, but
instead gets the files from GRUB
<antrik> once the disk driver is operational, we flip a switch, and the
root filesystem starts reading stuff from disk normally
<antrik> transparently for all other processes
<bddebian> How does grub access the disk without drivers?
<antrik> bddebian: GRUB obviously has its own drivers... that's how it
loads the kernel and modules
<antrik> bddebian: basically, it would have to load additional modules for
all the components necessary to get the Hurd disk driver going
<bddebian> Right, why wouldn't that be possible?
<antrik> (I have some more crazy ideas too -- but these are mostly
orthogonal :-) )
<antrik> ?
<antrik> I'm describing this because I'm pretty sure it *is* possible :-)
<bddebian> That grub loads the kernel and whatever server/module gets
access to the disk
<antrik> not sure what you mean
<bddebian> Well as usual I probably don't know the proper terminology but
why could grub load gnumach and the hurd "disk server" that contains the
userspace drivers?
<antrik> disk server?
<bddebian> Oh FFS whatever contains the disk drivers :)
<bddebian> diskdde, whatever :)
<antrik> actually, I never liked the idea of having a big driver blob very
much... ideally each driver should have it's own file
<antrik> but that's admittedly beside the point :-)
<antrik> its
<antrik> so to restate: in addition to gnumach, ext2fs.static, and ld.so,
in the new scenario GRUB will also load exec, the disk driver, any
libraries these two depend upon, and any additional infrastructure
involved in getting the disk driver running (for automatic probing or
whatever)
<antrik> probably some other Hurd core servers too, so we can have a more
complete POSIX environment for the disk driver to run in
<bddebian> There ya go :)
<antrik> the interesting part is modifying ext2fs so it will access only
the GRUB-provided files, until it is told that it's OK now to access the
real disk
<antrik> (and the mechanism how ext2 actually gets at the GRUB-provided
files)
<bddebian> Or write some new really small ext2fs? :)
<antrik> ?
<bddebian> I'm just talking out my butt. Something temporary that gets
disposed of when the real disk is available :)
<antrik> well, I mentioned above that I considered some handoff
schemes... but they would probably be more complex to implement than
doing the switchover internally in ext2
<bddebian> Ah
<bddebian> boot up in a ramdisk? :)
<antrik> (and the temporary FS would *not* be an ext2 obviously, but rather
some special ramdisk-like filesystem operating from GRUB-loaded files...)
<antrik> again, that would require a complicated handoff-scheme
<bddebian> Bah, what do I know? :)
<antrik> (well, you could of course go with a trivial chroot()... but that
would be ugly and inefficient, as the initial processes would still run
from the ramdisk)
<bddebian> Aren't most things running in memory initially anyway? At what
point must it have access to the real disk?
<braunr> antrik: but doesn't that require that disk drivers be statically
linked ?
<braunr> and having all disk drivers in separate tasks (which is what we
prefer to blobs as you put it) seems to pretty much forbid using static
linking
<braunr> hm actually, i don't see how any solution could work without
static linking, as it would create a recursion
<braunr> and the only one required is the one used by the root file system
<braunr> others can be run from the dynamically linked version
<braunr> antrik: i agree, it's a good approach, requiring only a slightly
more complicated boot script/sequence
<antrik> bddebian: at some point we have to access the real disk so we
don't have to work exclusively with stuff loaded by grub... but there is
no specific point where it *has* to happen. generally speaking, the
sooner the better
<antrik> braunr: why wouldn't that work with a dynamically linked disk
driver? we only need to make sure all required libraries are loaded by
grub too
<braunr> antrik: i have a problem with that approach :p
<braunr> antrik: it would probably require a reboot when those libraries
are upgraded, wouldn't it ?
<antrik> I'd actually wish we could run with a dynamically linked ext2fs as
well... but that would require a separated boot filesystem and some kind
of handoff approach, which would be much more complicated I fear...
<braunr> and if a driver is restarted, would it use those libraries too ?
and if so, how to find them ?
<braunr> but how can you run a dynamically linked root file system ?
<braunr> unless the libraries it uses are provided by something else, as
you said
<antrik> braunr: well, if you upgrade the libraries, *and* want the disk
driver to use the upgraded libraries, you are obviously in a tricky
situation ;-)
<braunr> yes
<antrik> perhaps you could tell ext2 to preload the new libraries before
restarting the disk driver...
<antrik> but that's a minor quibble anyways IMHO
<braunr> but that case isn't that important actually, since upgrading these
libraries usually means we're upgrading the system, which can imply a
reoobt
<braunr> i don't think it is
<braunr> it looks very complicated to me
<braunr> think of restart as after a crash :p
<braunr> you can't preload stuff in that case
<antrik> uh? I don't see anything particularily complicated. but my point
was more that it's not a big thing if that's not implemented IMHO
<braunr> right
<braunr> it's not that important
<braunr> but i still think statically linking is better
<braunr> although i'm not sure about some details
<antrik> oh, you mean how to make the root filesystem use new libraries
without a reboot? that would be tricky indeed... but this is not possible
right now either, so that's not a regression
<braunr> i assume that, when statically linking, only the .o providing the
required symbols are included, right ?
<antrik> making the root filesystem restartable is a whole different epic
story ;-)
<braunr> antrik: not the root file system, but the disk driver
<braunr> but i guess it's the same
<antrik> no, it's not
<braunr> ah
<antrik> for the disk driver it's really not that hard I believe
<antrik> still some extra effort, but definitely doable
<braunr> with the preload you mentioned
<antrik> yes
<braunr> i see
<braunr> i don't think it's worth the trouble actually
<braunr> statically linking looks way simpler and should make for smaller
binaries than if libraries were loaded by grub
<antrik> no, I really don't want statically linked disk drivers
<braunr> why ?
<antrik> again, I'd prefer even ext2fs to be dynamic -- only that would be
much more complicated
<braunr> the point of dynamically linking is sharing
<antrik> while dynamic disk drivers do not require any extra effort beyond
loading the libraries with grub
<braunr> but if it means sharing big files that are seldom used (i assume
there is a lot of code that simply isn't used by hurd servers), i don't
see the point
<antrik> right. and with the approach I proposed that will work just as it
should
<antrik> err... what big files?
<braunr> glibc ?
<antrik> I don't get your point
<antrik> you prefer statically linking everything needed before the disk
driver runs (which BTW is much more than only the disk driver itself) to
using normal shared libraries like the rest of the system?...
<braunr> it's not "like the rest of the system"
<braunr> the libraries loaded by grub wouldn't be back by the ext2fs server
<braunr> they would be wired in memory
<braunr> you'd have two copies of them, the one loaded by grub, and the one
shared by normal executables
<antrik> no
<braunr> i prefer static linking because, if done correctly, the combined
size of the root file system and the disk driver should be smaller than
that of the rootfs+disk driver and libraries loaded by grub
<antrik> apparently I was not quite clear how my approach would work :-(
<braunr> probably not
<antrik> (preventing that is actually the reason why I do *not* want as
simple boot filesystem+chroot approach)
<braunr> and initramfs can be easily freed after init
<braunr> an*
<braunr> it wouldn't be a chroot but something a bit more involved like
switch_root in linux
<antrik> not if various servers use files provided by that init filesystem
<antrik> yes, that's the complex handoff I'm talking about
<braunr> yes
<braunr> that's one approach
<antrik> as I said, that would be a quite elegant approach (allowing a
dynamically linked ext2); but it would be much more complicated to
implement I believe
<braunr> how would it allow a dynamically linked ext2 ?
<braunr> how can the root file system be linked with code backed by itself
?
<braunr> unless it requires wiring all its memory ?
<antrik> it would be loaded from the init filesystem before the handoff
<braunr> init sn't the problem here
<braunr> i understand how it would boot
<braunr> but then, you need to make sure the root fs is never used to
service page faults on its own address space
<braunr> or any address space it depends on, like the disk driver
<braunr> so this basically requires wiring all the system libraries, glibc
included
<braunr> why not
<antrik> ah. yes, that's something I covered in a separate section in my
thesis ;-)
<braunr> eh :)
<antrik> we have to do that anyways, if we want *any* dynamically linked
components (such as the disk driver) in the paging path
<braunr> yes
<braunr> and it should make swapping more reliable too
<antrik> so that adds a couple MiB of wired memory... I guess we will just
have to live with that
<braunr> yes it seems acceptable
<braunr> thanks
<antrik> (it is actually one reason why I want to avoid static linking as
much as possible... so at least we have to wire these libraries only
*once*)
<antrik> anyways, back to my "simpler" approach
<antrik> the idea is that a (static) ext2fs would still be the first task
running, and immediately able to serve filesystem access requests -- only
it would serve these requests from files preloaded by GRUB rather than
the actual disk driver
<braunr> i understand now
<antrik> until a switch is flipped telling it that now the disk driver (and
anything it depends upon) is operational
<braunr> you still need to make sure all this is wired
<antrik> yes
<antrik> that's orthogonal
<antrik> which is why I have a separate section about it :-)
<braunr> what was the relation with ggi ?
<antrik> none strictly speaking
<braunr> i'll rephrase it: how did it end up in your thesis ?
<antrik> I just covered all aspects of userspace drivers in one of the
"introduction" sections of my thesis
<braunr> ok
<antrik> before going into specifics of KGI
<antrik> (and throwing in along the way that most of the issues described
do not matter for KGI ;-) )
<braunr> hehe
<braunr> i'm wondering, do we have mlockall on the hurd ? it seems not
<braunr> that's something deeply missing in mach
<antrik> well, bootstrap in general *is* actually relevant for KGI as well,
because of console messages during boot... but the filesystem bootstrap
is mostly irrelevant there ;-)
<antrik> braunr: oh? that's a problem then... I just assumed we have it
<braunr> well, it's possible to implement MCL_CURRENT, but not MCL_FUTURE
<braunr> or at least, it would be a bit difficult
<braunr> every allocation would need to be aware of that property
<braunr> it's better to have it managed by the vm system
<braunr> mach-defpager has its own version of vm_allocate for that
<antrik> braunr: I don't think we care about MCL_FUTURE here
<antrik> hm, wait... MCL_CURRENT is fine for code, but it might indeed be a
problem for dynamically allocated memory :-(
<braunr> yes
# Plan
* Examine what other systems are doing.
* L4
* Hurd on L4: deva, fabrica
* [[/DDE]]
* Minix 3
* Start with a simple driver and implement the needed infrastructure (see
*Issues* above) as needed.
* <http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/user-drivers/>
Some (unfinished?) code written by Robert Millan in 2003: PC keyboard
and parallel port drivers, using `libtrivfs`.
## I/O Server
### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-10
<braunr> usually you'd have an I/O server, and serveral device drivers
using it
<bddebian> Well maybe that's my question. Should there be unique servers
for say ISA, PCI, etc or could all of that be served by one "server"?
<braunr> forget about ISA
<bddebian> How? Oh because the ISA bus is now served via a PCI bridge?
<braunr> the I/O server would merely be there to help device drivers map
only what they require, and avoid conflicts
<braunr> because it's a relic of the past :p
<braunr> and because it requires too high privileges
<bddebian> But still exists in several PCs :)
<braunr> so usually, you'd directly ask the kernel for the I/O ports you
need
<mel-> so do floppy drives
<mel-> :)
<braunr> if i'm right, even the l4 guys do it that way
<braunr> he's right, some devices are still considered ISA
<bddebian> But that is where my confusion lies. Something has to figure
out what/where those I/O ports are
<braunr> and that's why i tell you to forget about it
<braunr> ISA has both statically allocated ports (the historical ones) and
others usually detected through PnP, when it works
<braunr> PCI is much cleaner, and memory mapped I/O is both better and much
more popular currently
<bddebian> So let's say I have a PCI SCSI card. I need some device driver
to know how to talk to that, right?
<bddebian> something is going to enumerate all the PCI devices and map them
to and address space
<braunr> bddebian: that would be the I/O server
<braunr> we'll call it the PCI server
<bddebian> OK, that is where I am headed. What if everything isn't PCI?
Is the "I/O server" generic enough?
<youpi> nowadays everything is PCI
<bddebian> So we are completely ignoring legacy hardware?
<braunr> we could have separate servers using a shared library that would
provide allocation routines like resource maps
<braunr> yes
<youpi> for what is not, the translator just needs to be run as root
<youpi> to get i/o perm from the kernel
<braunr> the idea for projects like ours, where the user base is very small
is: don't implement what you can't test
<youpi> bddebian: legacy can not be supported in a nice way, so for them we
can just afford a bad solution
<youpi> i.e. leave the driver in kernel
<braunr> right
<youpi> e.g. the keyboard
<bddebian> Well what if I have a USB keyboard? :-P
<braunr> that's a different matter
<youpi> USB keyboard is not legacy hardware
<youpi> it's usb
<youpi> which can be enumerated like pci
<braunr> and USB uses PCI
<youpi> and pci could be on usb :)
<braunr> so it's just a separate stack on top of the PCI server
<bddebian> Sure so would SCSI in my example above but is still a seperate
bus
<braunr> netbsd has a very nice way of attaching drivers to buses
<youpi> bddebian: also, yes, and it can be enumerated
<bddebian> Which was my original question. This magic I/O server handles
all of the buses?
<youpi> no, just PCI, and then you'd have other servers for other busses
<braunr> i didn't mean that there would be *one* I/O server instance
<bddebian> So then it isn't a generic I/O server is it?
<bddebian> Ahhhh
<youpi> that way you can even put scsi over ppp or other crazy things
<braunr> it's more of an idea
<braunr> there would probably be a generic interface for basic stuff
<braunr> and i assume it could be augmented with specific (e.g. USB)
interfaces for servers that need more detailed communication
<braunr> (well, i'm pretty sure of it)
<bddebian> So the I/O server generalizes all functions, say read and write,
and then the PCI, USB, SCIS, whatever servers are contacted by it?
<braunr> no, not read and write
<braunr> resource allocation rather
<youpi> and enumeration
<braunr> probing perhaps
<braunr> bddebian: the goal of the I/O server is to make it possible for
device drivers to access the resources they need without a chance to
interfere with other device drivers
<braunr> (at least, that's one of the goals)
<braunr> so a driver would request the bus space matching the device(s) and
obtain that through memory mapping
<bddebian> Shouldn't that be in the "global address space"? SOrry if I am
using the wrong terminology
<youpi> well, the i/o server should also trigger the start of that driver
<youpi> bddebian: address space is not a matter for drivers
<braunr> bddebian: i'm not sure what you think of with "global address
space"
<youpi> bddebian: it's just a matter for the pci enumerator when (and if)
it places the BARs in physical address space
<youpi> drivers merely request mapping that, they don't need to know about
actual physical addresses
<braunr> i'm almost sure you lost him at BARs
<braunr> :(
<braunr> youpi: that's what i meant with probing actually
<bddebian> Actually I know BARs I have been reading on PCI :)
<bddebian> I suppose physicall address space is more what I meant when I
used "global address space"
<braunr> i see
<youpi> bddebian: probably, yes
# Documentation
* [An Architecture for Device Drivers Executing as User-Level
Tasks](http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=665603), 1993, David B. Golub,
Guy G. Sotomayor, Freeman L. Rawson, III
* [Performance Measurements of the Multimedia Testbed on Mach 3.0: Experience
Writing Real-Time Device Drivers, Servers, and
Applications](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.40.8685),
1993, Roger B. Dannenberg, David B. Anderson, Tom Neuendorffer, Dean
Rubine, Jim Zelenka
* [User Level IPC and Device Management in the Raven
Kernel](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.57.3733),
1993, D. Stuart Ritchie, Gerald W. Neufeld
* [Creating User-Mode Device Drivers with a
Proxy](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.26.3055),
1997, Galen C. Hunt
* [The APIC Approach to High Performance Network Interface Design: Protected
DMA and Other
Techniques](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.56.1198),
1997, Zubin D. Dittia, Guru M. Parulkar, Jerome R. Cox, Jr.
* [The Fluke Device Driver
Framework](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.4.7927),
1999, Kevin Thomas Van Maren
* [Omega0: A portable interface to interrupt hardware for L4
system](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.21.5958),
2000, Jork Löser, Michael Hohmuth
* [Userdev: A Framework For User Level Device Drivers In
Linux](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.3.4461),
2000, Hari Krishna Vemuri
* [User Mode Drivers](http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5442), 2002, Bryce
Nakatani
* [Towards Untrusted Device
Drivers](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.13.1725),
2003, Ben Leslie, Gernot Heiser
* [Encapsulated User-Level Device Drivers in the Mungi Operating
System](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.6.1531),
2004, Ben Leslie Nicholas, Nicholas FitzRoy-Dale, Gernot Heiser
* [Linux Kernel Infrastructure for User-Level Device
Drivers](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.10.1408),
2004, Peter Chubb
* [Get More Device Drivers out of the
Kernel!](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.59.6333),
2004, Peter Chubb
* <http://gelato.unsw.edu.au/IA64wiki/UserLevelDrivers>
* [Initial Evaluation of a User-Level Device
Driver](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.59.4531),
2004, Kevin Elphinstone, Stefan Götz
* [User-level Device Drivers: Achieved
Performance](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.59.6766),
2005, Ben Leslie, Peter Chubb, Nicholas FitzRoy-Dale, Stefan Götz, Charles
Gray, Luke Macpherson, Daniel Potts, Yueting Shen, Kevin Elphinstone,
Gernot Heiser
* [Virtualising
PCI](http://www.ice.gelato.org/about/oct06_presentations.php#pres14), 2006,
Myrto Zehnder, Peter Chubb
* [Microdrivers: A New Architecture for Device
Drivers](http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~vinodg/papers/hotos2007/), 2007, Vinod
Ganapathy, Arini Balakrishnan, Michael M. Swift, Somesh Jha
* <http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.109.2623>
[[!tag open_issue_documentation]]
* <http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.146.2170>
[[!tag open_issue_documentation]]
# External Projects
* [[/DDE]]
* <http://ertos.nicta.com.au/research/drivers/uldd/>
* <http://gelato.unsw.edu.au/IA64wiki/UserLevelDrivers>
* [Running applications on the Xen
Hypervisor](http://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/running_applications_on_the_xen),
Antti Kantee, 2013-09-17. [The Anykernel and Rump
Kernels](http://www.netbsd.org/docs/rump/).
|