path: root/hurd/subhurd.mdwn

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A sub-Hurd is like a [[neighbor_Hurd|neighborhurd]], however, makes use of some
resources provided by another Hurd.  For instance, backing store and the
console.

Sub-hurds are extremely useful for debugging core servers as it is possible to
attach to them with gdb from the parent
([[debugging_via_subhurds|debugging/subhurd]]).  This avoids deadlock, e.g.,
when the instance of gdb stops the server but requires its use.  (Note: it is
possible to use [[debugging/gdb/noninvasive_debugging]], but this is less
flexible.)  Vice versa, it is also possible to use a subhurd to debug the
*main* Hurd system, for example, the latter's root file system.

[[!toc levels=2]]


# Howto

## Preparing

To run a subhurd, you need an additional partition with an installed Hurd
system.  In principle, you can also use your main partition in read-only mode;
but this obviously will create severe limitations.  Usually, you will want a
complete independent system.

The system for the subhurd is a normal Hurd installation, which could just as
well run standalone.  You can use any of the various possible installation
methods, or reuse an existing installation if you already have several.  If
using [[Debian_GNU/Hurd|running/debian]], the easiest is probably to use
[[running/debian/crosshurd]], which you can run directly from your main Hurd to
set up another Hurd on a different partition, without ever rebooting.  (You can
run the `native-install` step from a chroot or already in a subhurd.)


### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-15

    <gnu_srs> Never dared to try a subhurd, any link to the howto? 
    <teythoon> gnu_srs: I followed
      http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/subhurd.html though using crosshurd
      didn't work for me, I just used debootstrap
    <teythoon> gnu_srs: and you need a separate filesystem translator (i.e. not
      /) for that
    <teythoon> the easiest way is to add another virtual disk to you qemu setup
    <braunr> use the qemu image directly
    <braunr> simplest way to set up a subhurd
    <braunr> just change fstab from the host before the first boot to avoid
      making the subhurd use the same hd0 drive as the host
    <teythoon> braunr: nice idea :)


## Booting

To boot the subhurd, you need a boot script.  For historical reasons, usually
`/boot/servers.boot` is used. (Originally, this was also used to boot the main
Hurd, using "serverboot".  Nowadays, this isn't used for the main boot anymore,
as GRUB can directly load all the necessary modules.)

However, the canonical `/boot/servers.boot` file is no longer distributed with
[[Debian_GNU/Hurd|running/debian]].  Here is a slightly adopted version:

       # Boot script file for booting GNU Hurd.  Each line specifies a file to be
       # loaded by the boot loader (the first word), and actions to be done with it.

       # First, the bootstrap filesystem.  It needs several ports as arguments,
       # as well as the user flags from the boot loader.
       /hurd/ext2fs.static --bootflags=${boot-args} --host-priv-port=${host-port} --device-master-port=${device-port} --exec-server-task=${exec-task} -Tdevice ${root-device} $(task-create) $(task-resume)

       # Now the exec server; to load the dynamically-linked exec server program,
       # we have the boot loader in fact load and run ld.so, which in turn
       # loads and runs /hurd/exec.  This task is created, and its task port saved
       # in ${exec-task} to be passed to the fs above, but it is left suspended;
       # the fs will resume the exec task once it is ready.
       /lib/ld.so.1 /hurd/exec $(exec-task=task-create)

       ## default pager
       #/dev/sd0b $(add-paging-file)

/!\ It's very important not to introduce spurious line breaks, so be very
careful when copying!  All the options following `ext2fs.static` have to be on
a single line.

Now actually booting the subhurd is a simple matter of issuing (as root):

       boot servers.boot /dev/hd0s6

(Replace `hd0s6` by the name of your partition for the subhurd.)

/!\ The partition must be unmounted (or mounted read-only) before you boot from
it!

(In theory it shouldn't be neccessary to run the subhurd as user `root`, but in
practice [that doesn't work at the
moment](http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?17341).)

You can provide the subhurd with a network card by passing a `-f` option to
`boot`.  For instance, if you have a second network card `/dev/eth1` in your
host hurd, pass `-f eth0=/dev/eth1` to make it appear as device eth0 in the
subhurd.

Now the subhurd should boot just like a normal Hurd started directly from GRUB,
finally presenting a login prompt.  The `boot` program serves as proxy for the
subhurd, so you can control it from the terminal where you issued the boot
command.

To exit the subhurd, issue `halt` or `reboot`.  This should exit it cleanly,
but for some reason it doesn't always work; sometimes it will output various
errors and then hang.  If that happens, you need to kill the subhurd processes
manually from a different terminal.


## Using

In the subhurd, you can do basically all the same things as in the main Hurd.

You can even set up networking: Just invoke `settrans` on the
`/servers/socket/2` as usual inside the subhurd, only using a different local
IP than in the main Hurd.  This way, the subhurd will be able to communicate to
the outside world with its own IP -- allowing for example to do `apt-get`
inside the subhurd, or to `ssh` directly into the subhurd.

If you want to access the subhurd processes from the outside, e.g. for
[[debugging_purposes|debugging/subhurd]] (or to get rid of a subhurd that
didn't exit cleanly...), you need to find out how main Hurd [[PID]]s correspond to
subhurd processes: the subhurd processes appear in the main Hurd (e.g. if doing
`ps -e`) as unknown processes, and vice versa, but the [[PID]]s are different!  To
find out which process is which, you can simply compare the order -- while the
numbers are different, the order should usually match.  Often it also helps to
look at the number of threads (e.g. using `ps -l`), as many servers have very
characteristic thread counts.


### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-08-09

    <teythoon> btw, is there a way to get dde-based networking into a subhurd?
    <teythoon> the wiki instructions look like they're for the mach driver
    <teythoon> and starting the dde translator inside the subhurd does not work
      for me
    <teythoon> that's probably a good thing though
    <youpi> the netdde process will need privileged access to mach
    <youpi> for hardware access
    <braunr> you can't easily use netdde from a subhurd, unless with a
      different nic
    <braunr> i usually rebuild mach with in kernel devices so both the main and
      subhurd can share on nic
    <braunr> one*
    <youpi> could a port to netdde perhaps forwarded to the subhurd?
    <braunr> zengh da wrote the eth-multiplexer for that iirc
    <youpi> it's a matter of making it appear as an eth0 device on the master
      port aiui
    <braunr> zheng*
    <teythoon> yes, I looked at that
    <teythoon> what is the master port?
    <youpi> on a plain hurd system it's the port that privileged processes can
      use to access mach devices
    <youpi> in a subhurd, it's the same for the subhurd, to access some devices
      that you choose to give access to
    <braunr> its real name is the "device master port"
    <teythoon> ah yes


#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-08-10

    <antrik> teythoon: use eth-multiplexer to use the NIC within a
      subhurd. that's exactly what it was created for.
    <antrik> I don't remember whether it's even possible to share a "raw"
      netdde device... I don't think I ever tried that; and I don't remember
      enough of the theory to tell whether it should be possible
    <antrik> but I really don't see the reason to, when eth-multiplexer is
      available
    <antrik> (IMHO running an eth-multiplexer on top of netdde should be the
      default setup in fact)
    <antrik> as for actually passing on the device, that should be perfectly
      possible with zhengda's modified subhurd... but I don't remember whether
      that was ever merged upstream
    <antrik> (you will definitely need that for using netdde in a subhurd,
      regardless whether through eth-multiplexer or directly)


#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-15

    <teythoon> I wonder if we can modify the boot program so that it passes
      ports from the mother hurd to the subhurd
    <teythoon> so that we could pass in a port to the eth-multiplexer
    <teythoon> or use like /hurd/remap as the root translator for the subhurd

[[open_issues/virtualization/remap_root_translator]].

    <braunr> eth-multiplexer was created exactly for that iirc,
    <braunr> so it's probably already done somewhere


#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-16

    <gnu_srs> braunr: regarding subhurd did you mean to install
      sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz
    <gnu_srs> on a separate partition and booting using the instructions for
      subhurds on the web.
    <braunr> gnu_srs: yes
    <braunr> be careful that the subhurd doesn't use the same partition as the
      main hurd, that's all
    <gnu_srs> what about changing fstab?
    <braunr> 12:17 < braunr> be careful that the subhurd doesn't use the same
      partition as the main hurd, that's all
    <teythoon> gnu_srs: yes, you need to change the fstab
    <teythoon> currently it is used for fscking stuff, so if it points to your
      main partition it will cause severe corruption
    <teythoon> gnu_srs: you also have to specify the right partition in the
      servers.boot file
    <gnu_srs> fstab of the subhurd image?
    <teythoon> yes
    <gnu_srs> how to unpack the .img file (just to be sure)?
    <teythoon> gnu_srs: you don't need to, just use the img file as secondary
      hard disk image
    <gnu_srs> Then how should I be able to change fstab of the image?
    <teythoon> boot your hurd box, mount the partition and change it
    <gnu_srs> I missed something here: on my partition /my_chroot I have have
      the file debian-hurd-20130504.img
    <teythoon> gnu_srs: ah, you copied it to the partition, braunr meant to use
      it as the secondary disk, e.g. qemu ... -hdb debian-hurd-20130504.img ...
    <gnu_srs> That is the same as installing another cd image, where does the
      subhurd come into play?
    <teythoon> mount the partition on the secondary hd, fix the fstab there,
      mount it r/o, get the servers.boot file from the wiki, modify it so that
      it points to the right partition, execute boot servers.boot /dev/<your
      partition>, probably /dev/hd1s1
    <gnu_srs> BTW: unpacking was problematic: tar: debian-hurd-20130504.img:
      Cannot seek to 2147696640 (2G limitations)
    <teythoon> I wonder why you did this on your hurd system in the first
      place...
    <gnu_srs> I thought I could use that partition, /my_chroot as a chroot
      place. So it won't work for subhurds?
    <teythoon> well, there are several ways to setup a subhurd. one is to
      already have a spare partition for that and use crosshurd or as I did
      debootstrap to install a debian system there
    <teythoon> braunr suggested an even easier way, download the .img file and
      use it as secondary hard disk
    <teythoon> you ended up doing kind of both
    <gnu_srs> I tried once with debootstrap and that created a disaster...
    <teythoon> how so?
    <gnu_srs> The install errored out, and the whole filesystem (including /)
      was left in a broken state. Maybe I tried 
    <gnu_srs> that without using a separate partition. Don't remember any
      longer. So you say it's safe now?
    <teythoon> I used it successfully to setup my subhurd
    <gnu_srs> and you have your subhurd in a separate partition, installed from
      there too, as root?
    <gnu_srs> the web page only mentions crosshurd, and that failed for you?
    <teythoon> yes, having a separate partition is (currently) necessary to run
      a subhurd
    <teythoon> yes, I used debootstrap as root, afaics that is necessary
    <teythoon> and yes, as I said the other day, I tried crosshurd first and it
      failed
    <teythoon> then again, I fail to see any reason to use crosshurd these days
    <teythoon> it's only a wrapper around debootstrap anyway, using it with
      --foreign and fixing up stuff later
    <teythoon> one has more control over the process if one uses debootstrap
      directly
    <gnu_srs> I still don't dare to do it yet. I'll create another image using
      netinst with a separate partition and try out first.
    <gnu_srs> When installing a new image using netinst.iso (2013-06-30) and
      rebooting /proc does not get mounted?
    <teythoon> gnu_srs: is that a statement or a question?
    <gnu_srs> A statement.
    <teythoon> it's not customary to end statements with question marks ;)
    <gnu_srs> s/mounted?/mounted, why?/
    <teythoon> well, you seem to be the last person to perform such an
      installation, so you are in the perfect position to answer this question.
    <gnu_srs> cat /var/log/dmesg?
    <gnu_srs> On other images I have: fsysopts /proc; /hurd/procfs
      --clk-tck=100 --stat-mode=444 --fake-self=1
    <youpi> gnu_srs: no, check the installation log
    <youpi> gnu_srs: and what does showtrans say?
    <gnu_srs> showtrans /proc; <empty>
    <gnu_srs> which log file to look for?
    <youpi> the installation log, somewhere in /var/log probably
    <gnu_srs> I only find /proc in /var/log/installer/syslog, mainly printing
      out errors not finding /proc/mounts
    <youpi> iirc the /proc translator should be set during the hurd package
      configuration
    <youpi> you should probably look for that part in the log
    <youpi> Setting up translators: /hurd/exec /hurd/proxy-defpager
      /hurd/pflocal (+link) /hurd/pfinet (+link) (+link) /hurd/procfs -c
      /hurd/password crash-kill crash-suspend crash-dump-core crash.
    <youpi> that part
    <gnu_srs>  debootstrap:  /hurd/procfs -c and in-target:  /hurd/procfs -c No
      errors
    <youpi> I don't understand what that means
    <youpi> please explain in more details
    <gnu_srs> see: http://paste.debian.net/41195/
    <youpi> makes much more sense :)
    <gnu_srs> Where is the 'Setting up translators' done? I cannot find
      anything in /var/lib/dpkg/info/hurd* or /etc/init.d/...
    <pinotree> /usr/lib/hurd/setup-translators, called in hurd.postinst
    <gnu_srs> tks:)
    <gnu_srs> Hi, when installing a new image with debootstrap to /chroot the
      script boot/servers.boot is already there (as well as in /boot/ + grub)
    <gnu_srs> Is it OK to use that file to boot the subhurd? 
    <gnu_srs> using /boot/servers.boot or /chroot/boot/servers.boot (if the
      /chroot partition is unmounted it cannot be used?)
    <gnu_srs> and how to unmount /chroot: umount does not work?
    <gnu_srs> braunr: I'm also trying to find out what's wrong with glibc, when
      my subhurd is up and running 2.13-39 (if possible)
    <gnu_srs> I know I should issue settrans command, but I'm not yet fluent in
      translators.
    <gnu_srs> sorry:-/
    <gnu_srs> Now this, after a reboot: unknown code P 30 while trying to open
      /dev/hd0s3 (/chroot)
    <gnu_srs> Disk write protected: use the -n option to do a read-only check
      of the device.
    <gnu_srs> fsysopts /dev/&hd0s1 --writable: Operation not supported??
    <gnu_srs> OK, I'm giving up for now, no subhurd:-( and a broken install.
    <gnu_srs> Which terminal to use in rescue mode, TERM is not set,
      dumb,mach,hurd does not work with nano?
    <gnu_srs> e2fsck /dev/ho0s3; e2fsck: Unknown code P 2 while trying to open
      /dev/ho0s3; Possibly non-existent device?
    <gnu_srs> mke2fs /dev/hd0s3; /dev/hd0s3 is not a block special device.;
      Proceed anyway? (y,n) n: What's going on (hd0s3 not mounted)??
    <gnu_srs> anybody, help?
    <gnu_srs> after removing and creating the partition again:mke2fs
      /dev/hd0s3, <same>, mke2fs: Unknown code P 13 while trying to determine
      filesystem size: What's going on?
    <gnu_srs> Where to find the glibc-2.13 versions which used to be at
      debian-ports?.
    <gnu_srs> seems they can be found on snapshot.debian.org


#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-17

    <gnu_srs> teythoon: Installing subhurd via debootstrap on partition
      /chroot fails miserably. Install hangs, and after reboot \rm -r
      /chroot/* fails for dev and proc
    <gnu_srs> Are there translators running there already? I have not
      booted the subhurd. 
    <gnu_srs> translators for hd0s3 (/chroot) are storeio and
      ex2fs.static. Do I have to stop them to be able to clean out
      /chroot?
    <gnu_srs>  mount -v /chroot; settrans -a /chroot /hurd/ext2fs
      /dev/hd0s3;
    <gnu_srs> ext2fs: /dev/hd0s3: panic: main: device too small for
      superblock (0 bytes);
    <gnu_srs> mount: cannot start translator /hurd/ext2fs: Translator
      died
    <gnu_srs> Please, somebody!
    <gnu_srs> don't ask to ask, just ask, right?
    <braunr> we've already told you everything you need
    <braunr> just get it right
    <braunr> for example, i told you to be careful about fstab so that
      the subhurd wouldn't use the main hurd partition
    <braunr> but you managed to screw that
    <braunr> good job
    <gnu_srs> I installed the subhurd in a partition /chroot /dev/hd0s3
      using debootstrap
    <braunr> i don't know deboostrap, it may be broken, use the disk
      image youpi maintains
    <gnu_srs> ant the install screwed up with debootstrap
    <gnu_srs> ok; then I cannot use a partition, but another disk in
      kvm, e.g. hdb?
    <braunr> gnu_srs: hd1
    <gnu_srs> something is fishy with glibc, definitely, that's why I'm
      trying to set up a subhurd to revert to 2.13-39
    <gnu_srs> hi, when trying to boot a subhurd: /hurd/ext2fs.static:
      hd0s3: Gratuitous error; bye
    <braunr> gnu_srs: why hd0s3 ?
    <braunr> it should be hd1s1
    <gnu_srs> I'm still using a separate partition /my_chroot
      /hd0s3. Will switch to hd1 next. teythoon?
    <gnu_srs> the servers.boot script use absolute
      paths:/hurd/ext2fs.static and /lib/ld.so.1 /hurd/exec, 
    <gnu_srs> shouldn't they be relative to /my_chroot?
    <braunr> no
    <braunr> they're actually from your host
    <gnu_srs> teythoon: please, how did you succeed to boot a subhurd
      in a partition?
    <gnu_srs> using debootstrap
    <teythoon> gnu_srs: from my shell history:
    <teythoon> : 1374672426:0;debootstrap sid /mnt
      http://http.debian.net/debian/
    <teythoon> : 1374673020:0;cp /etc/hosts /etc/resolv.conf /mnt/etc
    <teythoon> : 1374673048:0;cp /etc/passwd /etc/shadow /mnt/etc
    <braunr> teythoon: so it does work fine ?
    <braunr> great
    <teythoon> yes, why wouldn't it?
    <teythoon> gnu_srs: I then remounted that partition r/o and used
      the servers.boot file from the wiki to boot it
    <teythoon> braunr: why wouldn't it? (you do mean the debootstrap
      part, don't you?)
    <braunr> teythoon: i don't know
    <braunr> i've heard it wasn't maintained any more
    <braunr> not being maintained is a good reason for something to
      become unusable/untrustable with time
    <teythoon> o_O it is at the heart of d-i, isn't it?
    <teythoon> I actually do most Debian installations using
      debootstrap directly
    <braunr> ah
    <braunr> ok :)
    <braunr> teythoon: even hurd ones ?
    <teythoon> braunr: well, just the subhurd installation, but that
      went as expected
    <braunr> good
    <gnu_srs> Finally: I found the reason for Gratuitous error, I used
      the /boot/servers.boot script, 
    <gnu_srs> that being different to the one on the wiki:-/
    <gnu_srs> Is it possible to copy files between a host hurd and
      subhurd, what about access to eth0? 
    <gnu_srs> Hi, when starting the subhurd I see some warnings/error:
      http://paste.debian.net/41963/
    <gnu_srs> 1) A spelling error execunable-> executable
    <gnu_srs> 2) libports: invalid destination port
    <gnu_srs> 3) mach-defpager: another already running
    <pinotree> "execunable" is not a typo, but just "exec" and "unable
      ..." without a space-type character
    <gnu_srs> OK, sounds more plausible
    <gnu_srs> Ah, the printouts are mixed, no bug
    <gnu_srs> When setting up nework in the subhurd: /hurd/pfinet:
      file_name_lookup /dev/eth0: Translator died
    <gnu_srs> /hurd/pfinet: device_open(/dev/eth0): (os/device) no such
      device
    <gnu_srs> settrans: /hurd/pfinet: Translator died


#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-18

    <youpi> priority does not matter much
    <youpi> memory manager is not really surprising, there's indeed already one
    <youpi> what is actually the problem?
    <gnu_srs> So these are merely warnings?
    <youpi> gnu_srs: yes
    <gnu_srs> Real problems are I cannot set up networking, e.g. wget ...:
      Connecting to ... failed: Address family not supported by protocol.
    <youpi> gnu_srs: did you give the subhurd a network card?
    <gnu_srs> How?
    <gnu_srs> and do I need to set up fstab, for now it's empty.
    <gnu_srs> I just installed the base with dbootstrap
    <youpi> gnu_srs: -f option of boot
    <youpi> e2fsck will need fstab for sure
    <youpi> otherwise it can't divine what should be checked
    <gnu_srs> Why is the /boot/servers.boot different from the subhurd one on
      the wiki? Is it used at all, I thought grub was in charge.
    <youpi> it's not used at all
    <gnu_srs> maybe better to put in the subhurd one there then, with a
      comment?
    <youpi> no, since /boot/servers.boot is supposed to be used for machine
      boot
    <youpi> not subhurd boot
    <gnu_srs> what about putting a copy of the suhurd one there, with a
      different name?
    <youpi> probably a good idea, yes
    <youpi> matter of making it happen
    <gnu_srs> the wiki page on subhurd does not say how to set up networking,
      only that you can do it.
    <youpi> matter of adding the information
    <youpi> I remember it's the -f option of boot
    <youpi> make it work, and add the information for others
    <gnu_srs> I could try, but don't know how to add a network card to the
      subhurd, and e.g. how to set up swap
    <youpi> see -f option
    <gnu_srs> of boot?
    <youpi> "gnu_srs: -f option of boot"
    <youpi> if you could read what we write, that'd make things happen way
      faster
    <gnu_srs> yes I saw your comment above, it was just to be 100% sure:-D
    <gnu_srs> device_file=/dev/eth0 or something else?
    <gnu_srs> eth0 is used by the host already
    <youpi> did you read boot --help ?
    <youpi> iirc it's not a problem, both will receive all frames
    <gnu_srs> yes I did
    <youpi> then I don't see where you took device_file from
    <youpi> at least in that form
    <youpi> --device=device_name=device_file
    <youpi> that means rather something like --device=foo=bar
    <gnu_srs> so -f /dev/eth0 is correct usage then?
    <youpi> didn't you see that in what I wrote, there was a "=" in there?
    <gnu_srs> -f is the short option, --device is the long, I don't see the
      need for = in the short option?
    <youpi> in the long option there are *two* =
    <gnu_srs> yes, but in the short no?
    <youpi> why not?
    <youpi> long -> short usually drops one =
    <gnu_srs> to summarize: -f=/dev/eth0 or --device=eth_sub=/dev/eth0?
    <youpi> why shouldn't there be a eth_sub in the short version?
    <gnu_srs> 10:15:49) youpi: long -> short usually drops one =
    <youpi> yes, it drops the =
    <youpi> but  nothing else
    <youpi> if the long option needs some information, the short needs it too?
    <youpi> -?
    <gnu_srs> correct now? -f eth_sub=/dev/eth0 or --device=eth_sub=/dev/eth0?
    <youpi> yes
    <gnu_srs> k!


# Further Info

Read about using a subhurd for [[debugging_purposes|debugging/subhurd]].

Roland's tutorial about [[running_a_subhurd]].


# Use Cases

<a name="debugging_main_hurd_system"></a>
## Debugging the *Main* Hurd System

A subhurd can be used for debugging the *main* Hurd system.  This works as long
as the subhurd doesn't use any services provided by the main Hurd.  For
example, if you already have a subhurd running at the time it happens, you can
use that one to debug a deadlocked [[translator/ext2fs]] root file system in
the *main* Hurd.

For this, you need to get a handle to the main Hurd's [[ext2fs
translator|translator/ext2fs]]'s [[PID]], but this is no problem, as currently
[[PID]]s are visible across subhurd boundaries.  (It is a [[!taglink
open_issue_hurd]] whether this is the right thing to do in
[[service_solahart_jakarta_selatan__082122541663/virtualization]] contexts, but that's how it currently is.)


<a name="unit_testing"></a>
## Unit Testing

freenode, #hurd channel, 2011-03-06:

From [[open_issues/unit_testing]].

    <youpi> it could be interesting to have scripts that automatically start a
      sub-hurd to do the tests
    <youpi> though that'd catch sub-hurd issues :)
    <foocraft> so a sub-hurd is a hurd that I can run on something that I know
      works(like linux)?
    <foocraft> Virtual machine I would think
    <foocraft> and over a network connection it would submit results back to
      the host :p
    * foocraft brain damage
    <youpi> sub-hurd is a bit like chroot
    <youpi> except that it's more complete
    <foocraft> oh okay
    <youpi> i.e. almost everything gets replaced with what you want, except the
      micro-kernel
    <youpi> that way you can even test the exec server for instance, without
      risks of damaging the host OS
    <foocraft> and we know the micro-kernel works correctly, right youpi?
    <youpi> well, at least it's small enough that most bugs are not there
    <foocraft> 1) all tests run in subhurd 2) output results in a place in the
      subhurd 3) tester in the host checks the result and pretty-prints it 4)
      rinse & repeat
    <youpi> the output can actually be redirected iirc
    <youpi> since you give the sub-hurd a "console"
    <foocraft> youpi, yup yeah, so now it's more like chroot if that's the case
    <youpi> it really looks like chroot, yes
    <foocraft> but again, there's this subset of tests that we need to have
      that ensures that even the tester running on the subhurd is valid, and it
      didn't break because of a bug in the subhurd
    <tschwinge> As long as you do in-system testing, you'll always (have to)
      rely on some functionality provided by the host system.
    <foocraft> the worst thing that could happen with unit testing is false
      results that lead someone to try to fix something that isn't broken :p
    <tschwinge> Yes.
    <youpi> usually one tries to repeat the test by hand in a normal
      environment