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--- a/TWiki/TWikiDiscuss.mdwn
+++ b/TWiki/TWikiDiscuss.mdwn
@@ -1,3 +1,5 @@
+# <a name="Wiki_Meta_Discussions"> Wiki Meta Discussions </a>
+
 This is an area to talk about how these pages are put together, edited and arranged. Without organization the navigation of the site could become unusable.
 
 Please add your comments below and then your signature, Blog style.
@@ -8,44 +10,65 @@ One thing though. Refactor _mercilessly_! :-) [Yes! [[Main/GrantBow]]]
 
 -- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 13 May 2002
 
-Wouldn't it be cool to have a Wiki on Savannah? It would greatly simplify maintenance of project home pages, for instance. The possibilities are endless it's only the reoccurring issue of actually implementing the idea ...
+----
 
--- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 13 May 2002
+How often are the Webalizer stats run? [http://hurd.gnufans.org/webalizer/usage\_200211.html](http://hurd.gnufans.org/webalizer/usage_200211.html)
 
-Should we perhaps disable [[TWikiGuest]] as a viable user for editing content on the Hurd web? Just a thought that crossed my mind.
+Once a day. [Main.JoachimNilsson]
 
--- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 11 Jun 2002
+-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 11 Nov 2002
 
-No, not really. It was just a thought I had ...
+Aside: I think it's time to refactor! I've refactored my comments again. I wasn't sure what you wanted to do about yours so I left them. We need to understand how best to work with this very soon IMNSHO.
+
+-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 11 Nov 2002
 
-Sure, move anything you want off the front page. Focus on content, **real** content and remove anything not directly applicable to the Hurd! Anyone interested in TWiki stuff will find that out for themselves.
+I partitioned your entry, maybe that's a good way to work? That way we can remove issues when they become irrelevant ... I found it quite handy and helped me partition my time as well.
 
--- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 11 Jun 2002
+-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 11 Nov 2002
 
-At long last, the [[TWiki/GnuSkinPlugin]] has reached beta status. The Hurd web is the first to be the real testing ground for it. Please report any trouble to yours truly before complaining at the page authors. :-)
+Thanks for installing the [Smilies Plugin](http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/SmiliesPlugin)! :-) With some of the existing IRC culture this should be very nice once people know it's available and start using it.
 
--- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 4th July 2002
+Peeve - One thing I think is confusing is using a different name for a web than is actually coded into twiki.cfg. If we want to rename the webs now (as I feel should be done for the whole distribution) then we need to rename them NOW. As more pages get created the name is used to give the actual name of pages: example [[Main/CloroxWork]] and I can't type in [[Users/CloroxWork]] as the web menu would imply! Navigation is critical as we go to a multiple TWiki web design.
 
-The [[WebMenu]] is in dire need of someone fixing the contents of. I can do the manual editing to make it look good if someone tells me what we should have on it.
+-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 11 Nov 2002
 
-I suggest shortcuts to various more important topics. See the page [[TWiki/ManagingTopics]] for info on renaming, moving and administering topics in the TWiki to do this in the Right Way<sup>TM</sup>.
+Well ... the naming of the webs. It's a real hassle, actually. I think it can be done, but a shell script for such a change will take some time to construct. It would include parsing all files and using sed to replace Main and TWiki while first shutting down the webserver. This would also nullify old URL-links people might have to the Main and TWiki webs, which can of course be fixed with rewrite rules in Apache. If you really want to press the issue I can look into it (if I can find the time) - otherwise we are stuck with the Main and TWiki web names.
 
--- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 20 Jul 2002
+And, of course, for clarity of navigation we should of course use the real names.
 
-Aside: I think it's time to refactor! I've refactored my comments again. I wasn't sure what you wanted to do about yours so I left them. We need to understand how best to work with this very soon IMNSHO.
+-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 11 Nov 2002
 
-Thanks for installing the [Smilies Plugin](http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/SmiliesPlugin)! :-) With some of the existing IRC culture this should be very nice once people know it's available and start using it.
+I'm also confused about where some of the WebMenus are generated. On the Hurd web it's there but I don't understand where the others are auto-generated from. I'll have to defer to the GNU Skin master!
 
-Peeve - One thing I think is confusing is using a different name for a web than is actually coded into twiki.cfg. If we want to rename the webs now (as I feel should be done for the whole distribution) then we need to rename them NOW. As more pages get created the name is used to give the actual name of pages: example [[Main/CloroxWork]] and I can't type in [[Users/CloroxWork]] as the web menu would imply! Navigation is critical as we go to a multiple TWiki web design.
+-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 11 Nov 2002
+
+The Hurd web has its own [[WebMenu]] (from the days when there only was one web). The other webs get their webmenus from the default TWiki.WebMenu. It's in the TWiki web all plugins install their specific files/topics. The "Edit Menu" link at the bottom of each menu always points to the current webs' menu topic, even if it does not have one. This is a bit confusing and I can change it to point to the TWiki.WebMenu for **all** webs to make things/navigation easier.
+
+See the [[TWiki/WebMenuFormat]] topic for details.
+
+On a further note, I think it is possible to only have **one** WebMenu for the whole Wiki.
+
+* Having one menu simplifies maintenance.
+* Webs cam have a flag "expand=[always|never]" which can simplify things for us.
+* There is a generic "ITEM" called "LINK" that _should_ work if you want to link to topics outside of the current web from within the context of the current web.
+
+I changed the global WebMenu so that Main and TWiki are on top. I removed their default items, since they aren't that interesting for those webs. What remains are [mostly] useful links to all users that are displayed always.
+
+-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 11 Nov 2002
 
 We also need to get navigation synchronized. I very much like the way we can do [[WebMenu]] topics for each web but we need to do some QA to make them all usable. and consistent.
 
 One thing I struggled with during my modifications of [[Hurd/WebMenu]] was where to put all the various "administrative" tools for the web we are actually using. Perhaps they should go at the bottom of the [[WebHome]] page instead of in the [[WebMenu]], but the [[WebMenu]] makes more sense from an ease of navigation viewpoint. If you are in a web and want to see the most active topics for that Web I don't want to force folks to go back to [[WebHome]] unless it's absolutely necessary. Does this make any sense or is this another pet peeve of mine that others (Joachim?) may not agree with?
 
-I'm also confused about where some of the WebMenus are generated. On the Hurd web it's there but I don't understand where the others are auto-generated from. I'll have to defer to the GNU Skin master!
-
 -- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 11 Nov 2002
 
-How often are the Webalizer stats run? [http://hurd.gnufans.org/webalizer/usage\_200211.html](http://hurd.gnufans.org/webalizer/usage_200211.html)
+You make perfect sense in your monologue about navigational issues. I completely agree! The most visited topics should be listed in the menu, and so should perhaps also some of the administrative topics. But I too hesitate about the latter ones.
 
--- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 11 Nov 2002
+I have thought about the naming of the administrative topics. E.g., I named [[WebChanges]] ChangeLog and [[WebIndex]] Index, etc.
+
+* What do you think about that naming strategy in the WebMenu?
+* Should we perhaps fall back on the original naming and thus simplify the understanding of what is an actual Hurd/Mach/Mig topic and what is a boring TWiki topic?
+
+I'm in favour of the original naming. Again, see my proposed change to the TWiki.WebMenu.
+
+-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 11 Nov 2002