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+[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]]
+
+[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable
+id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this
+document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or
+any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant
+Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license
+is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation
+License|/fdl]]."]]"""]]
+
+[[!tag open_issue_hurd]]
+
+
+# [[!message-id "20130625154749.17799.36923@thinkbox.jade-hamburg.de"]]
+
+
+## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-07-22
+
+ <teythoon> ok, so back to the drawing board for the next big issue, the
+ potential proc and init merge
+ <teythoon> Roland had some harsh words for that proposal, but noone else
+ raised concerns
+ <youpi> noone else does not mean much
+ <youpi> I guess only Roland actually understands the matter
+ <youpi> so I'd tend to believe him
+ <teythoon> even though, his criticism was so superficial, he could at least
+ be a bit more specific...
+ <braunr> i agree that the argument, being simply based on vague principle,
+ isn't very convincing
+ <teythoon> so, what should I do?
+ <braunr> you can either keep them separate, or fight with roland
+ <teythoon> common braunr, I need a little more guidance in these kind of
+ social issues
+ <teythoon> a statement like this is of little use ;)
+ <braunr> that's the best i can give you
+ <teythoon> :/
+ <braunr> i have one patch "fixing" HZ on the hurd, and i even get to fight
+ about it
+ <teythoon> I understand Roland has been around forever and keeps an eye on
+ stuff
+ <teythoon> but could/would he block a patch for hurd if e.g. youpi would
+ accept it
+ <teythoon> i.e. how much control has he in practice?
+ <teythoon> me fighting with him over a patch is of little value for anyone
+ and I don't care to do so
+ <braunr> not much i suppose now
+ <braunr> but we also have to agree with the change
+ <braunr> with *real* arguments
+ <braunr> (well, if it was up to me, i'd even merge exec with proc so ..)
+ <teythoon> ok, so I whip up a patch to see how it goes in practice and
+ present it so we could talk about the issue with something to look at
+ first
+ <braunr> although maybe not ;p
+ <braunr> you'll hit the same reaction
+ <teythoon> from Roland?
+ <braunr> yes
+ <braunr> and youpi said he tends to trust what roland says
+ <braunr> so let's discuss the pros and cons a bit more
+ <teythoon> yes, but I'd honor his concerns if they were properly
+ presented. just telling me to hack on linux instead even though I think I
+ have demonstrated that I do want to work on Hurd is so childish in my
+ eyes that I do not consider that a valid argument at the moment
+ <teythoon> sure, shoot
+ <braunr> well, functionally, they're unrelated
+ <teythoon> head -n1 init/init.c
+ <teythoon> /* Start and maintain hurd core servers and system run state
+ <youpi> and thus it makes sense to make them separate, even if it does not
+ seem to bring anything useful now
+ <youpi> history has shown that it makes a bed for nice things later
+ <braunr> teythoon: that's not what proc is about
+ <teythoon> braunr: I know
+ <teythoon> braunr: that's what init is about in its own words ;)
+ <youpi> teythoon: also, "simplifying the code" is not necessarily an
+ argument that would be considered
+ <youpi> depending on the simplification
+ <youpi> linux made it all simple by using a monolithic kernel :)
+ <youpi> separating concerns is complex
+ <youpi> but in the end it usually pays off on the Hurd
+ <youpi> personally, I'd be fine with Guillem's solution, and renumbering
+ init's pid in Debian
+ <youpi> there's a pending question from Roland actually: what information
+ is exchanged between init and proc in the end?
+ <youpi> that's actually the point of the discussion: is that information
+ really big or not
+ <teythoon> I'm sorry, you lost me, where did he ask that question?
+ <pinotree> $ git grep proc_getmsgport | egrep '[0-9]' ← /hurd/init as pid 1
+ is hardcoded in few places
+ <youpi> teythoon: he didn't ask it this way, but that's the question I had
+ to be able to answer his
+ <youpi> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 10:36:35 -0700 (PDT)
+ <youpi> > That's not what he said. He said there is a lot of information
+ <youpi> > propagated from init to proc, and thus the separation is
+ questionable.
+ <youpi> Are you talking about bootstrap, or what?
+ <youpi> as I haven't investigated much, I couldn't answer this
+ <youpi> pinotree: right. We could patch these in Debian
+ <teythoon> youpi: so, shall I refresh, test and refine Guillems patch and
+ resend it?
+ <youpi> it's probably an easier way
+ <teythoon> ok, I start by doing that
+
+
+## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-07-25
+
+ <teythoon> pinotree: btw, there are two /sbin/init processes even with my
+ hacked up init/proc variant where /sbin/init gets to be pid 1
+ <pinotree> never seen that
+ <pinotree> what are their parents?
+ <teythoon> pinotree: well, pid 1 is /sbin/init now, pid 13 or something has
+ the parent 1
+ <teythoon> looks like init forks or something
+ <pinotree> i guess your sysvinit is compiled without INITDEBUG?
+ <pinotree> nothing in syslog either?
+ <teythoon> pinotree: it's compiled like the sysvinit shipped with debian
+ <pinotree> teythoon: do you have custom additions in inittab?
+ <teythoon> pinotree: a terminal for my serial console
+ <teythoon> *getty
+ <pinotree> are the getty started correctly for you, btw?
+ <teythoon> pinotree: yes
+ <pinotree> interesting
+ <pinotree> teythoon: back then, they were costantly respawning, with hurd's
+ getty's failing to start when exec'ed by (sysv)init
+ <pinotree> wonder what changed
+ <teythoon> pinotree: cool, magically went away then :)
+
+
+## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-07-29
+
+ <teythoon> youpi: I need some feedback on the not freezing translators
+ issue, more specifically whether I understood you correctly in your mail
+ from wednesday (20130724131552.GG9576@type.bordeaux.inria.fr)
+ <teythoon> oh yeah, and I had some questions yesterday too, about rpctrace
+ and dead-name notifications, specifically why /hurd/init is not receiving
+ any for the root translator and the exec server
+ <braunr> teythoon: more details please
+ <teythoon> ok, so /hurd/init is registering for dead name notifications for
+ essential tasks
+ <teythoon> the rootfs and exec both register as essential tasks at init and
+ init requests successfully dead name notifications for them
+ <teythoon> if you e.g. kill the auth server, /hurd/init will notice and
+ crash the system
+ <teythoon> if you kill exec or the rootfs, /hurd/init does not get notified
+ <teythoon> I verified this with gdb and an subhurd
+ <teythoon> I'm puzzled by this, as the kernel is the one who sends the
+ notifications, right?
+ <braunr> yes
+ <braunr> teythoon: where is the problem ?
+ <teythoon> and it is not that the system is not sending any messages, it
+ is, I see the msgcount increase over time
+ <teythoon> braunr: dunno, as far as I can tell the kernel does not deliver
+ the notification for rootfs and exec
+ <braunr> oh
+ <teythoon> those are the two processes loaded by grub, maybe they are
+ different somehow
+ <braunr> is that affecting your work ?
+ <teythoon> no, not directly, I strayed around at the weekend, trying to
+ think of cool stuff hurd could do
+ <teythoon> youpi: I need some feedback on the not freezing translators
+ issue, more specifically whether I understood you correctly in your mail
+ from wednesday (20130724131552.GG9576@type.bordeaux.inria.fr)
+ <youpi> teythoon: ok, now I'm available for the not-freezing-translators
+ thing :)
+
+
+## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-08-05
+
+ <teythoon> youpi: I'm in the process of producing a unified
+ sysvinit-as-pid1 and please-dont-kill-important-processes patch series
+ <teythoon> youpi: there is one issue with changing /hurd/inits pid, libcs
+ reboot() also assumes that it has the pid 1
+ <youpi> argl
+ <youpi> that's bad, because it's then an ABI, not just an internal thing
+ <teythoon> hardcoding the pid is the worst way of getting a handle of any
+ server :/
+ <teythoon> I've been thinking to make it explicit by binding it to
+ /servers/startup or something
+ <youpi> that would be more hurdish than using a pid, yes
+ <teythoon> yes, and not only does it break the abi, but in a bad way
+ too. if the libc is updated before the hurd, the shutdown sequence is
+ broken in a way that the translators aren't synced :/
+ <teythoon> youpi: as a workaround, we could make reboot() signal both pid 1
+ and 2
+ <youpi> at worse pid 1 shouldn't get harmed by receiving a startup_reboot
+ RPC indeed
+ <teythoon> yes
+
+
+## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-08-16
+
+ <teythoon> grml, the procfs hardcodes the kernels pid :/
+ <teythoon> there's always one more thing to fix...
+ <teythoon> uh, and we made pids.h a private header, so no nice constant for
+ the procfs translator :/
+ <teythoon> server lookup by hardcoding the pid should be banned...
+
+
+## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-16
+
+ <teythoon> youpi: I'm thinking about splitting /hurd/init into /hurd/init
+ and /hurd/startup
+ <teythoon> that way, you could also merge the init as pid1 patches
+ <teythoon> that should be doable within the week
+ <youpi> that would probably be better received by Roland than merging init
+ into proc :)
+ <teythoon> yes, I suppose so :D
+ <youpi> perhaps you should start the discussion on the list about it
+ already, with just a sketch of which would do what
+ <teythoon> ok
+ <teythoon> fwiw I like the name startup b/c it speaks the startup protocol
+ <braunr> teythoon: +1 startup
+
+
+## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-23
+
+ <teythoon> I've been hacking on init/startup, I've looked into cleaning it
+ up