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--- a/hurd/subhurd.mdwn
+++ b/hurd/subhurd.mdwn
@@ -1,5 +1,5 @@
-[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation,
-Inc."]]
+[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2013 Free Software
+Foundation, Inc."]]
[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable
id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this
@@ -42,6 +42,22 @@ set up another Hurd on a different partition, without ever rebooting. (You can
run the `native-install` step from a chroot or already in a subhurd.)
+### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-15
+
+ <gnu_srs> Never dared to try a subhurd, any link to the howto?
+ <teythoon> gnu_srs: I followed
+ http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/subhurd.html though using crosshurd
+ didn't work for me, I just used debootstrap
+ <teythoon> gnu_srs: and you need a separate filesystem translator (i.e. not
+ /) for that
+ <teythoon> the easiest way is to add another virtual disk to you qemu setup
+ <braunr> use the qemu image directly
+ <braunr> simplest way to set up a subhurd
+ <braunr> just change fstab from the host before the first boot to avoid
+ making the subhurd use the same hd0 drive as the host
+ <teythoon> braunr: nice idea :)
+
+
## Booting
To boot the subhurd, you need a boot script. For historical reasons, usually
@@ -118,6 +134,362 @@ look at the number of threads (e.g. using `ps -l`), as many servers have very
characteristic thread counts.
+### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-08-09
+
+ <teythoon> btw, is there a way to get dde-based networking into a subhurd?
+ <teythoon> the wiki instructions look like they're for the mach driver
+ <teythoon> and starting the dde translator inside the subhurd does not work
+ for me
+ <teythoon> that's probably a good thing though
+ <youpi> the netdde process will need privileged access to mach
+ <youpi> for hardware access
+ <braunr> you can't easily use netdde from a subhurd, unless with a
+ different nic
+ <braunr> i usually rebuild mach with in kernel devices so both the main and
+ subhurd can share on nic
+ <braunr> one*
+ <youpi> could a port to netdde perhaps forwarded to the subhurd?
+ <braunr> zengh da wrote the eth-multiplexer for that iirc
+ <youpi> it's a matter of making it appear as an eth0 device on the master
+ port aiui
+ <braunr> zheng*
+ <teythoon> yes, I looked at that
+ <teythoon> what is the master port?
+ <youpi> on a plain hurd system it's the port that privileged processes can
+ use to access mach devices
+ <youpi> in a subhurd, it's the same for the subhurd, to access some devices
+ that you choose to give access to
+ <braunr> its real name is the "device master port"
+ <teythoon> ah yes
+
+
+#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-08-10
+
+ <antrik> teythoon: use eth-multiplexer to use the NIC within a
+ subhurd. that's exactly what it was created for.
+ <antrik> I don't remember whether it's even possible to share a "raw"
+ netdde device... I don't think I ever tried that; and I don't remember
+ enough of the theory to tell whether it should be possible
+ <antrik> but I really don't see the reason to, when eth-multiplexer is
+ available
+ <antrik> (IMHO running an eth-multiplexer on top of netdde should be the
+ default setup in fact)
+ <antrik> as for actually passing on the device, that should be perfectly
+ possible with zhengda's modified subhurd... but I don't remember whether
+ that was ever merged upstream
+ <antrik> (you will definitely need that for using netdde in a subhurd,
+ regardless whether through eth-multiplexer or directly)
+
+
+#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-15
+
+ <teythoon> I wonder if we can modify the boot program so that it passes
+ ports from the mother hurd to the subhurd
+ <teythoon> so that we could pass in a port to the eth-multiplexer
+ <teythoon> or use like /hurd/remap as the root translator for the subhurd
+ <braunr> eth-multiplexer was created exactly for that iirc,
+ <braunr> so it's probably already done somewhere
+
+
+#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-16
+
+ <gnu_srs> braunr: regarding subhurd did you mean to install
+ sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz
+ <gnu_srs> on a separate partition and booting using the instructions for
+ subhurds on the web.
+ <braunr> gnu_srs: yes
+ <braunr> be careful that the subhurd doesn't use the same partition as the
+ main hurd, that's all
+ <gnu_srs> what about changing fstab?
+ <braunr> 12:17 < braunr> be careful that the subhurd doesn't use the same
+ partition as the main hurd, that's all
+ <teythoon> gnu_srs: yes, you need to change the fstab
+ <teythoon> currently it is used for fscking stuff, so if it points to your
+ main partition it will cause severe corruption
+ <teythoon> gnu_srs: you also have to specify the right partition in the
+ servers.boot file
+ <gnu_srs> fstab of the subhurd image?
+ <teythoon> yes
+ <gnu_srs> how to unpack the .img file (just to be sure)?
+ <teythoon> gnu_srs: you don't need to, just use the img file as secondary
+ hard disk image
+ <gnu_srs> Then how should I be able to change fstab of the image?
+ <teythoon> boot your hurd box, mount the partition and change it
+ <gnu_srs> I missed something here: on my partition /my_chroot I have have
+ the file debian-hurd-20130504.img
+ <teythoon> gnu_srs: ah, you copied it to the partition, braunr meant to use
+ it as the secondary disk, e.g. qemu ... -hdb debian-hurd-20130504.img ...
+ <gnu_srs> That is the same as installing another cd image, where does the
+ subhurd come into play?
+ <teythoon> mount the partition on the secondary hd, fix the fstab there,
+ mount it r/o, get the servers.boot file from the wiki, modify it so that
+ it points to the right partition, execute boot servers.boot /dev/<your
+ partition>, probably /dev/hd1s1
+ <gnu_srs> BTW: unpacking was problematic: tar: debian-hurd-20130504.img:
+ Cannot seek to 2147696640 (2G limitations)
+ <teythoon> I wonder why you did this on your hurd system in the first
+ place...
+ <gnu_srs> I thought I could use that partition, /my_chroot as a chroot
+ place. So it won't work for subhurds?
+ <teythoon> well, there are several ways to setup a subhurd. one is to
+ already have a spare partition for that and use crosshurd or as I did
+ debootstrap to install a debian system there
+ <teythoon> braunr suggested an even easier way, download the .img file and
+ use it as secondary hard disk
+ <teythoon> you ended up doing kind of both
+ <gnu_srs> I tried once with debootstrap and that created a disaster...
+ <teythoon> how so?
+ <gnu_srs> The install errored out, and the whole filesystem (including /)
+ was left in a broken state. Maybe I tried
+ <gnu_srs> that without using a separate partition. Don't remember any
+ longer. So you say it's safe now?
+ <teythoon> I used it successfully to setup my subhurd
+ <gnu_srs> and you have your subhurd in a separate partition, installed from
+ there too, as root?
+ <gnu_srs> the web page only mentions crosshurd, and that failed for you?
+ <teythoon> yes, having a separate partition is (currently) necessary to run
+ a subhurd
+ <teythoon> yes, I used debootstrap as root, afaics that is necessary
+ <teythoon> and yes, as I said the other day, I tried crosshurd first and it
+ failed
+ <teythoon> then again, I fail to see any reason to use crosshurd these days
+ <teythoon> it's only a wrapper around debootstrap anyway, using it with
+ --foreign and fixing up stuff later
+ <teythoon> one has more control over the process if one uses debootstrap
+ directly
+ <gnu_srs> I still don't dare to do it yet. I'll create another image using
+ netinst with a separate partition and try out first.
+ <gnu_srs> When installing a new image using netinst.iso (2013-06-30) and
+ rebooting /proc does not get mounted?
+ <teythoon> gnu_srs: is that a statement or a question?
+ <gnu_srs> A statement.
+ <teythoon> it's not customary to end statements with question marks ;)
+ <gnu_srs> s/mounted?/mounted, why?/
+ <teythoon> well, you seem to be the last person to perform such an
+ installation, so you are in the perfect position to answer this question.
+ <gnu_srs> cat /var/log/dmesg?
+ <gnu_srs> On other images I have: fsysopts /proc; /hurd/procfs
+ --clk-tck=100 --stat-mode=444 --fake-self=1
+ <youpi> gnu_srs: no, check the installation log
+ <youpi> gnu_srs: and what does showtrans say?
+ <gnu_srs> showtrans /proc; <empty>
+ <gnu_srs> which log file to look for?
+ <youpi> the installation log, somewhere in /var/log probably
+ <gnu_srs> I only find /proc in /var/log/installer/syslog, mainly printing
+ out errors not finding /proc/mounts
+ <youpi> iirc the /proc translator should be set during the hurd package
+ configuration
+ <youpi> you should probably look for that part in the log
+ <youpi> Setting up translators: /hurd/exec /hurd/proxy-defpager
+ /hurd/pflocal (+link) /hurd/pfinet (+link) (+link) /hurd/procfs -c
+ /hurd/password crash-kill crash-suspend crash-dump-core crash.
+ <youpi> that part
+ <gnu_srs> debootstrap: /hurd/procfs -c and in-target: /hurd/procfs -c No
+ errors
+ <youpi> I don't understand what that means
+ <youpi> please explain in more details
+ <gnu_srs> see: http://paste.debian.net/41195/
+ <youpi> makes much more sense :)
+ <gnu_srs> Where is the 'Setting up translators' done? I cannot find
+ anything in /var/lib/dpkg/info/hurd* or /etc/init.d/...
+ <pinotree> /usr/lib/hurd/setup-translators, called in hurd.postinst
+ <gnu_srs> tks:)
+ <gnu_srs> Hi, when installing a new image with debootstrap to /chroot the
+ script boot/servers.boot is already there (as well as in /boot/ + grub)
+ <gnu_srs> Is it OK to use that file to boot the subhurd?
+ <gnu_srs> using /boot/servers.boot or /chroot/boot/servers.boot (if the
+ /chroot partition is unmounted it cannot be used?)
+ <gnu_srs> and how to unmount /chroot: umount does not work?
+ <gnu_srs> braunr: I'm also trying to find out what's wrong with glibc, when
+ my subhurd is up and running 2.13-39 (if possible)
+ <gnu_srs> I know I should issue settrans command, but I'm not yet fluent in
+ translators.
+ <gnu_srs> sorry:-/
+ <gnu_srs> Now this, after a reboot: unknown code P 30 while trying to open
+ /dev/hd0s3 (/chroot)
+ <gnu_srs> Disk write protected: use the -n option to do a read-only check
+ of the device.
+ <gnu_srs> fsysopts /dev/&hd0s1 --writable: Operation not supported??
+ <gnu_srs> OK, I'm giving up for now, no subhurd:-( and a broken install.
+ <gnu_srs> Which terminal to use in rescue mode, TERM is not set,
+ dumb,mach,hurd does not work with nano?
+ <gnu_srs> e2fsck /dev/ho0s3; e2fsck: Unknown code P 2 while trying to open
+ /dev/ho0s3; Possibly non-existent device?
+ <gnu_srs> mke2fs /dev/hd0s3; /dev/hd0s3 is not a block special device.;
+ Proceed anyway? (y,n) n: What's going on (hd0s3 not mounted)??
+ <gnu_srs> anybody, help?
+ <gnu_srs> after removing and creating the partition again:mke2fs
+ /dev/hd0s3, <same>, mke2fs: Unknown code P 13 while trying to determine
+ filesystem size: What's going on?
+ <gnu_srs> Where to find the glibc-2.13 versions which used to be at
+ debian-ports?.
+ <gnu_srs> seems they can be found on snapshot.debian.org
+
+
+#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-17
+
+ <gnu_srs> teythoon: Installing subhurd via debootstrap on partition
+ /chroot fails miserably. Install hangs, and after reboot \rm -r
+ /chroot/* fails for dev and proc
+ <gnu_srs> Are there translators running there already? I have not
+ booted the subhurd.
+ <gnu_srs> translators for hd0s3 (/chroot) are storeio and
+ ex2fs.static. Do I have to stop them to be able to clean out
+ /chroot?
+ <gnu_srs> mount -v /chroot; settrans -a /chroot /hurd/ext2fs
+ /dev/hd0s3;
+ <gnu_srs> ext2fs: /dev/hd0s3: panic: main: device too small for
+ superblock (0 bytes);
+ <gnu_srs> mount: cannot start translator /hurd/ext2fs: Translator
+ died
+ <gnu_srs> Please, somebody!
+ <gnu_srs> don't ask to ask, just ask, right?
+ <braunr> we've already told you everything you need
+ <braunr> just get it right
+ <braunr> for example, i told you to be careful about fstab so that
+ the subhurd wouldn't use the main hurd partition
+ <braunr> but you managed to screw that
+ <braunr> good job
+ <gnu_srs> I installed the subhurd in a partition /chroot /dev/hd0s3
+ using debootstrap
+ <braunr> i don't know deboostrap, it may be broken, use the disk
+ image youpi maintains
+ <gnu_srs> ant the install screwed up with debootstrap
+ <gnu_srs> ok; then I cannot use a partition, but another disk in
+ kvm, e.g. hdb?
+ <braunr> gnu_srs: hd1
+ <gnu_srs> something is fishy with glibc, definitely, that's why I'm
+ trying to set up a subhurd to revert to 2.13-39
+ <gnu_srs> hi, when trying to boot a subhurd: /hurd/ext2fs.static:
+ hd0s3: Gratuitous error; bye
+ <braunr> gnu_srs: why hd0s3 ?
+ <braunr> it should be hd1s1
+ <gnu_srs> I'm still using a separate partition /my_chroot
+ /hd0s3. Will switch to hd1 next. teythoon?
+ <gnu_srs> the servers.boot script use absolute
+ paths:/hurd/ext2fs.static and /lib/ld.so.1 /hurd/exec,
+ <gnu_srs> shouldn't they be relative to /my_chroot?
+ <braunr> no
+ <braunr> they're actually from your host
+ <gnu_srs> teythoon: please, how did you succeed to boot a subhurd
+ in a partition?
+ <gnu_srs> using debootstrap
+ <teythoon> gnu_srs: from my shell history:
+ <teythoon> : 1374672426:0;debootstrap sid /mnt
+ http://http.debian.net/debian/
+ <teythoon> : 1374673020:0;cp /etc/hosts /etc/resolv.conf /mnt/etc
+ <teythoon> : 1374673048:0;cp /etc/passwd /etc/shadow /mnt/etc
+ <braunr> teythoon: so it does work fine ?
+ <braunr> great
+ <teythoon> yes, why wouldn't it?
+ <teythoon> gnu_srs: I then remounted that partition r/o and used
+ the servers.boot file from the wiki to boot it
+ <teythoon> braunr: why wouldn't it? (you do mean the debootstrap
+ part, don't you?)
+ <braunr> teythoon: i don't know
+ <braunr> i've heard it wasn't maintained any more
+ <braunr> not being maintained is a good reason for something to
+ become unusable/untrustable with time
+ <teythoon> o_O it is at the heart of d-i, isn't it?
+ <teythoon> I actually do most Debian installations using
+ debootstrap directly
+ <braunr> ah
+ <braunr> ok :)
+ <braunr> teythoon: even hurd ones ?
+ <teythoon> braunr: well, just the subhurd installation, but that
+ went as expected
+ <braunr> good
+ <gnu_srs> Finally: I found the reason for Gratuitous error, I used
+ the /boot/servers.boot script,
+ <gnu_srs> that being different to the one on the wiki:-/
+ <gnu_srs> Is it possible to copy files between a host hurd and
+ subhurd, what about access to eth0?
+ <gnu_srs> Hi, when starting the subhurd I see some warnings/error:
+ http://paste.debian.net/41963/
+ <gnu_srs> 1) A spelling error execunable-> executable
+ <gnu_srs> 2) libports: invalid destination port
+ <gnu_srs> 3) mach-defpager: another already running
+ <pinotree> "execunable" is not a typo, but just "exec" and "unable
+ ..." without a space-type character
+ <gnu_srs> OK, sounds more plausible
+ <gnu_srs> Ah, the printouts are mixed, no bug
+ <gnu_srs> When setting up nework in the subhurd: /hurd/pfinet:
+ file_name_lookup /dev/eth0: Translator died
+ <gnu_srs> /hurd/pfinet: device_open(/dev/eth0): (os/device) no such
+ device
+ <gnu_srs> settrans: /hurd/pfinet: Translator died
+
+
+#### IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2013-09-18
+
+ <youpi> priority does not matter much
+ <youpi> memory manager is not really surprising, there's indeed already one
+ <youpi> what is actually the problem?
+ <gnu_srs> So these are merely warnings?
+ <youpi> gnu_srs: yes
+ <gnu_srs> Real problems are I cannot set up networking, e.g. wget ...:
+ Connecting to ... failed: Address family not supported by protocol.
+ <youpi> gnu_srs: did you give the subhurd a network card?
+ <gnu_srs> How?
+ <gnu_srs> and do I need to set up fstab, for now it's empty.
+ <gnu_srs> I just installed the base with dbootstrap
+ <youpi> gnu_srs: -f option of boot
+ <youpi> e2fsck will need fstab for sure
+ <youpi> otherwise it can't divine what should be checked
+ <gnu_srs> Why is the /boot/servers.boot different from the subhurd one on
+ the wiki? Is it used at all, I thought grub was in charge.
+ <youpi> it's not used at all
+ <gnu_srs> maybe better to put in the subhurd one there then, with a
+ comment?
+ <youpi> no, since /boot/servers.boot is supposed to be used for machine
+ boot
+ <youpi> not subhurd boot
+ <gnu_srs> what about putting a copy of the suhurd one there, with a
+ different name?
+ <youpi> probably a good idea, yes
+ <youpi> matter of making it happen
+ <gnu_srs> the wiki page on subhurd does not say how to set up networking,
+ only that you can do it.
+ <youpi> matter of adding the information
+ <youpi> I remember it's the -f option of boot
+ <youpi> make it work, and add the information for others
+ <gnu_srs> I could try, but don't know how to add a network card to the
+ subhurd, and e.g. how to set up swap
+ <youpi> see -f option
+ <gnu_srs> of boot?
+ <youpi> "gnu_srs: -f option of boot"
+ <youpi> if you could read what we write, that'd make things happen way
+ faster
+ <gnu_srs> yes I saw your comment above, it was just to be 100% sure:-D
+ <gnu_srs> device_file=/dev/eth0 or something else?
+ <gnu_srs> eth0 is used by the host already
+ <youpi> did you read boot --help ?
+ <youpi> iirc it's not a problem, both will receive all frames
+ <gnu_srs> yes I did
+ <youpi> then I don't see where you took device_file from
+ <youpi> at least in that form
+ <youpi> --device=device_name=device_file
+ <youpi> that means rather something like --device=foo=bar
+ <gnu_srs> so -f /dev/eth0 is correct usage then?
+ <youpi> didn't you see that in what I wrote, there was a "=" in there?
+ <gnu_srs> -f is the short option, --device is the long, I don't see the
+ need for = in the short option?
+ <youpi> in the long option there are *two* =
+ <gnu_srs> yes, but in the short no?
+ <youpi> why not?
+ <youpi> long -> short usually drops one =
+ <gnu_srs> to summarize: -f=/dev/eth0 or --device=eth_sub=/dev/eth0?
+ <youpi> why shouldn't there be a eth_sub in the short version?
+ <gnu_srs> 10:15:49) youpi: long -> short usually drops one =
+ <youpi> yes, it drops the =
+ <youpi> but nothing else
+ <youpi> if the long option needs some information, the short needs it too?
+ <youpi> -?
+ <gnu_srs> correct now? -f eth_sub=/dev/eth0 or --device=eth_sub=/dev/eth0?
+ <youpi> yes
+ <gnu_srs> k!
+
+
# Further Info
Read about using a subhurd for [[debugging_purposes|debugging/subhurd]].