path: root/open_issues/libpthread.mdwn

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[[!tag open_issue_glibc open_issue_libpthread]]

[[!toc]]


# cthreads -> pthreads

Get rid of cthreads; switch to pthreads.

There is a [[!FF_project 275]][[!tag bounty]] on this task.


## Original [[community/GSoC]] Task Description

[[!inline pages=community/gsoc/project_ideas/pthreads feeds=no]]


## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-04-26

    <pinotree> youpi: just to be sure: even if libpthread is compiled inside
      glibc (with proper symbols forwarding etc), it doesn't change that you
      cannot use both cthreads and pthreads in the same app, right?

[[Packaging_libpthread]].

    <youpi> it's the same libpthread
    <youpi> symbol forwarding does not magically resolve that libpthread lacks
      some libthread features :)
    <pinotree> i know, i was referring about the clash between actively using
      both
    <youpi> there'll still be the issue that only one will be initialized
    <youpi> and one that provides libc thread safety functions, etc.
    <pinotree> that's what i wanted to knew, thanks :)


## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-23

    <bddebian> So I am not sure what to do with the hurd_condition_wait stuff
    <braunr> i would also like to know what's the real issue with cancellation
      here
    <braunr> because my understanding is that libpthread already implements it
    <braunr> does it look ok to you to make hurd_condition_timedwait return an
      errno code (like ETIMEDOUT and ECANCELED) ?
    <youpi> braunr: that's what pthread_* function usually do, yes
    <braunr> i thought they used their own code
    <youpi> no
    <braunr> thanks
    <braunr> well, first, do you understand what hurd_condition_wait is ?
    <braunr> it's similar to condition_wait or pthread_cond_wait with a subtle
      difference
    <braunr> it differs from the original cthreads version by handling
      cancellation
    <braunr> but it also differs from the second by how it handles cancellation
    <braunr> instead of calling registered cleanup routines and leaving, it
      returns an error code
    <braunr> (well simply !0 in this case)
    <braunr> so there are two ways
    <braunr> first, change the call to pthread_cond_wait
    <bddebian> Are you saying we could fix stuff to use pthread_cond_wait()
      properly?
    <braunr> it's possible but not easy
    <braunr> because you'd have to rewrite the cancellation code
    <braunr> probably writing cleanup routines
    <braunr> this can be hard and error prone
    <braunr> and is useless if the code already exists
    <braunr> so it seems reasonable to keep this hurd extension
    <braunr> but now, as it *is* a hurd extension noone else uses
    <antrik> braunr: BTW, when trying to figure out a tricky problem with the
      auth server, cfhammer digged into the RPC cancellation code quite a bit,
      and it's really a horrible complex monstrosity... plus the whole concept
      is actually broken in some regards I think -- though I don't remember the
      details
    <braunr> antrik: i had the same kind of thoughts
    <braunr> antrik: the hurd or pthreads ones ?
    <antrik> not sure what you mean. I mean the RPC cancellation code -- which
      is involves thread management too
    <braunr> ok
    <antrik> I don't know how it is related to hurd_condition_wait though
    <braunr> well i found two main entry points there
    <braunr> hurd_thread_cancel and hurd_condition_wait
    <braunr> and it didn't look that bad
    <braunr> whereas in the pthreads code, there are many corner cases
    <braunr> and even the standard itself looks insane
    <antrik> well, perhaps the threading part is not that bad...
    <antrik> it's not where we saw the problems at any rate :-)
    <braunr> rpc interruption maybe ?
    <antrik> oh, right... interruption is probably the right term
    <braunr> yes that thing looks scary
    <braunr> :))
    <braunr> the migration thread paper mentions some things about the problems
      concerning threads controllability
    <antrik> I believe it's a very strong example for why building around
      standard Mach features is a bad idea, instead of adapting the primitives
      to our actual needs...
    <braunr> i wouldn't be surprised if the "monstrosities" are work arounds
    <braunr> right


## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-26

    <bddebian> Uhm, where does /usr/include/hurd/signal.h come from?
    <pinotree> head -n4 /usr/include/hurd/signal.
    <pinotree> h
    <bddebian> Ohh glibc?
    <bddebian> That makes things a little more difficult :(
    <braunr> why ?
    <bddebian> Hurd includes it which brings in cthreads
    <braunr> ?
    <braunr> the hurd already brings in cthreads
    <braunr> i don't see what you mean
    <bddebian> Not anymore :)
    <braunr> the system cthreads header ?
    <braunr> well it's not that difficult to trick the compiler not to include
      them
    <bddebian> signal.h includes cthreads.h  I need to stop that
    <braunr> just define the _CTHREADS_ macro before including anything
    <braunr> remember that header files are normally enclosed in such macros to
      avoid multiple inclusions
    <braunr> this isn't specific to cthreads
    <pinotree> converting hurd from cthreads to pthreads will make hurd and
      glibc break source and binary compatibility
    <bddebian> Of course
    <braunr> reminds me of the similar issues of the late 90s
    <bddebian> Ugh, why is he using _pthread_self()?
    <pinotree> maybe because it accesses to the internals
    <braunr> "he" ?
    <bddebian> Thomas in his modified cancel-cond.c
    <braunr> well, you need the internals to implement it
    <braunr> hurd_condition_wait is similar to pthread_condition_wait, except
      that instead of stopping the thread and calling cleanup routines, it
      returns 1 if cancelled
    <pinotree> not that i looked at it, but there's really no way to implement
      it using public api?
    <bddebian> Even if I am using glibc pthreads?
    <braunr> unlikely
    <bddebian> God I had all of this worked out before I dropped off for a
      couple years.. :(
    <braunr> this will come back :p
    <pinotree> that makes you the perfect guy to work on it ;)
    <bddebian> I can't find a pt-internal.h anywhere.. :(
    <pinotree> clone the hurd/libpthread.git repo from savannah
    <bddebian> Of course when I was doing this libpthread was still in hurd
      sources...
    <bddebian> So if I am using glibc pthread, why can't I use pthread_self()
      instead?
    <pinotree> that won't give you access to the internals
    <bddebian> OK, dumb question time.  What internals?
    <pinotree> the libpthread ones
    <braunr> that's where you will find if your thread has been cancelled or
      not
    <bddebian> pinotree: But isn't that assuming that I am using hurd's
      libpthread?
    <pinotree> if you aren't inside libpthread, no
    <braunr> pthread_self is normally not portable
    <braunr> you can only use it with pthread_equal
    <braunr> so unless you *know* the internals, you can't use it
    <braunr> and you won't be able to do much
    <braunr> so, as it was done with cthreads, hurd_condition_wait should be
      close to the libpthread implementation
    <braunr> inside, normally
    <braunr> now, if it's too long for you (i assume you don't want to build
      glibc)
    <braunr> you can just implement it outside, grabbing the internal headers
      for now
    <pinotree> another "not that i looked at it" question: isn't there no way
      to rewrite the code using that custom condwait stuff to use the standard
      libpthread one?
    <braunr> and once it works, it'll get integrated
    <braunr> pinotree: it looks very hard
    <bddebian> braunr: But the internal headers are assuming hurd libpthread
      which isn't in the source anymore
    <braunr> from what i could see while working on select, servers very often
      call hurd_condition_wait
    <braunr> and they return EINTR if canceleld
    <braunr> so if you use the standard pthread_cond_wait function, your thread
      won't be able to return anything, unless you push the reply in a
      completely separate callback
    <braunr> i'm not sure how well mig can cope with that
    <braunr> i'd say it can't :)
    <braunr> no really it looks ugly
    <braunr> it's far better to have this hurd specific function and keep the
      existing user code as it is
    <braunr> bddebian: you don't need the implementation, only the headers
    <braunr> the thread, cond, mutex structures mostly
    <bddebian> I should turn <pt-internal.h> to "pt-internal.h" and just put it
      in libshouldbelibc, no?
    <pinotree> no, that header is not installed
    <bddebian> Obviously not the "best" way
    <bddebian> pinotree: ??
    <braunr> pinotree: what does it change ?
    <pinotree> braunr: it == ?
    <braunr> bddebian: you could even copy it entirely in your new
      cancel-cond.C and mention where it was copied from
    <braunr> pinotree: it == pt-internal.H not being installed
    <pinotree> that he cannot include it in libshouldbelibc sources?
    <pinotree> ah, he wants to copy it?
    <braunr> yes
    <braunr> i want him to copy it actually :p
    <braunr> it may be hard if there are a lot of macro options
    <pinotree> the __pthread struct changes size and content depending on other
      internal sysdeps headers
    <braunr> well he needs to copy those too :p
    <bddebian> Well even if this works we are going to have to do something
      more "correct" about hurd_condition_wait.  Maybe even putting it in
      glibc?
    <braunr> sure
    <braunr> but again, don't waste time on this for now
    <braunr> make it *work*, then it'll get integrated
    <bddebian> Like it has already?  This "patch" is only about 5 years old
      now... ;-P
    <braunr> but is it complete ?
    <bddebian> Probably not :)
    <bddebian> Hmm, I wonder how many undefined references I am going to get
      though.. :(
    <bddebian> Shit, 5
    <bddebian> One of which is ___pthread_self.. :(
    <bddebian> Does that mean I am actually going to have to build hurds
      libpthreads in libshouldbeinlibc?
    <bddebian> Seriously, do I really need ___pthread_self, __pthread_self,
      _pthread_self and pthread_self???
    <bddebian> I'm still unclear what to do with cancel-cond.c.  It seems to me
      that if I leave it the way it is currently I am going to have to either
      re-add libpthreads or still all of the libpthreads code under
      libshouldbeinlibc.
    <braunr> then add it in libc
    <braunr> glib
    <braunr> glibc
    <braunr> maybe under the name __hurd_condition_wait
    <bddebian> Shouldn't I be able to interrupt cancel-cond stuff to use glibc
      pthreads?
    <braunr> interrupt ?
    <bddebian> Meaning interject like they are doing.  I may be missing the
      point but they are just obfuscating libpthreads thread with some other
      "namespace"?  (I know my terminology is wrong, sorry).
    <braunr> they ?
    <bddebian> Well Thomas in this case but even in the old cthreads code,
      whoever wrote cancel-cond.c
    <braunr> but they use internal thread structures ..
    <bddebian> Understood but at some level they are still just getting to a
      libpthread thread, no?
    <braunr> absolutely not ..
    <braunr> there is *no* pthread stuff in the hurd
    <braunr> that's the problem :p
    <bddebian> Bah damnit...
    <braunr> cthreads are directly implement on top of mach threads
    <braunr> implemeneted*
    <braunr> implemented*
    <bddebian> Sure but hurd_condition_wait wasn't
    <braunr> of course it is
    <braunr> it's almost the same as condition_wait
    <braunr> but returns 1 if a cancelation request was made
    <bddebian> Grr, maybe I am just confusing myself because I am looking at
      the modified (pthreads) version instead of the original cthreads version
      of cancel-cond.c
    <braunr> well if the modified version is fine, why not directly use that ?
    <braunr> normally, hurd_condition_wait should sit next to other pthread
      internal stuff
    <braunr> it could be renamed __hurd_condition_wait, i'm not sure
    <braunr> that's irrelevant for your work anyway
    <bddebian> I am using it but it relies on libpthread and I am trying to use
      glibc pthreads
    <braunr> hum
    <braunr> what's the difference between libpthread and "glibc pthreads" ?
    <braunr> aren't glibc pthreads the merged libpthread ?
    <bddebian> quite possibly but then I am missing something obvious.  I'm
      getting ___pthread_self in libshouldbeinlibc but it is *UND*
    <braunr> bddebian: with unmodified binaries ?
    <bddebian> braunr: No I added cancel-cond.c to libshouldbeinlibc
    <bddebian> And some of the pt-xxx.h headers
    <braunr> well it's normal then
    <braunr> i suppose
    <bddebian> braunr: So how do I get those defined without including
      pthreads.c from libpthreads? :)
    <antrik> pinotree: hm... I think we should try to make sure glibc works
      both whith cthreads hurd and pthreads hurd. I hope that shoudn't be so
      hard.
    <antrik> breaking binary compatibility for the Hurd libs is not too
      terrible I'd say -- as much as I'd like that, we do not exactly have a
      lot of external stuff depending on them :-)
    <braunr> bddebian: *sigh*
    <braunr> bddebian: just add cancel-cond to glibc, near the pthread code :p
    <bddebian> braunr: Wouldn't I still have the same issue?
    <braunr> bddebian: what issue ?
    <antrik> is hurd_condition_wait() the name of the original cthreads-based
      function?
    <braunr> antrik: the original is condition_wait
    <antrik> I'm confused
    <antrik> is condition_wait() a standard cthreads function, or a
      Hurd-specific extension?
    <braunr> antrik: as standard as you can get for something like cthreads
    <bddebian> braunr: Where hurd_condition_wait is looking for "internals" as
      you call them.  I.E. there is no __pthread_self() in glibc pthreads :)
    <braunr> hurd_condition_wait is the hurd-specific addition for cancelation
    <braunr> bddebian: who cares ?
    <braunr> bddebian: there is a pthread structure, and conditions, and
      mutexes
    <braunr> you need those definitions
    <braunr> so you either import them in the hurd
    <antrik> braunr: so hurd_condition_wait() *is* also used in the original
      cthread-based implementation?
    <braunr> or you write your code directly where they're available
    <braunr> antrik: what do you call "original" ?
    <antrik> not transitioned to pthreads
    <braunr> ok, let's simply call that cthreads
    <braunr> yes, it's used by every hurd servers
    <braunr> virtually
    <braunr> if not really everyone of them
    <bddebian> braunr: That is where you are losing me.  If I can just use
      glibc pthreads structures, why can't I just use them in the new pthreads
      version of cancel-cond.c which is what I was originally asking.. :)
    <braunr> you *have* to do that
    <braunr> but then, you have to build the whole glibc
    * bddebian shoots himself
    <braunr> and i was under the impression you wanted to avoid that
    <antrik> do any standard pthread functions use identical names to any
      standard cthread functions?
    <braunr> what you *can't* do is use the standard pthreads interface
    <braunr> no, not identical
    <braunr> but very close
    <braunr> bddebian: there is a difference between using pthreads, which
      means using the standard posix interface, and using the glibc pthreads
      structure, which means toying with the internale implementation
    <braunr> you *cannot* implement hurd_condition_wait with the standard posix
      interface, you need to use the internal structures
    <braunr> hurd_condition_wait is actually a shurd specific addition to the
      threading library
    <braunr> hurd*
    <antrik> well, in that case, the new pthread-based variant of
      hurd_condition_wait() should also use a different name from the
      cthread-based one
    <braunr> so it's normal to put it in that threading library, like it was
      done for cthreads
    <braunr> 21:35 < braunr> it could be renamed __hurd_condition_wait, i'm not
      sure
    <bddebian> Except that I am trying to avoid using that threading library
    <braunr> what ?
    <bddebian> If I am understanding you correctly it is an extention to the
      hurd specific libpthreads?
    <braunr> to the threading library, whichever it is
    <braunr> antrik: although, why not keeping the same name ?
    <antrik> braunr: I don't think having hurd_condition_wait() for the cthread
      variant and __hurd_condition_wait() would exactly help clarity...
    <antrik> I was talking about a really new name. something like
      pthread_hurd_condition_wait() or so
    <antrik> braunr: to avoid confusion. to avoid accidentally pulling in the
      wrong one at build and/or runtime.
    <antrik> to avoid possible namespace conflicts
    <braunr> ok
    <braunr> well yes, makes sense
    <bddebian> braunr: Let me state this as plainly as I hope I can.  If I want
      to use glibc's pthreads, I have no choice but to add it to glibc?
    <braunr> and pthread_hurd_condition_wait is a fine name
    <braunr> bddebian: no
    <braunr> bddebian: you either add it there
    <braunr> bddebian: or you copy the headers defining the internal structures
      somewhere else and implement it there
    <braunr> but adding it to glibc is better
    <braunr> it's just longer in the beginning, and now i'm working on it, i'm
      really not sure
    <braunr> add it to glibc directly :p
    <bddebian> That's what I am trying to do but the headers use pthread
      specific stuff would should be coming from glibc's pthreads
    <braunr> yes
    <braunr> well it's not the headers you need
    <braunr> you need the internal structure definitions
    <braunr> sometimes they're in c files for opacity
    <bddebian> So ___pthread_self() should eventually be an obfuscation of
      glibcs pthread_self(), no?
    <braunr> i don't know what it is
    <braunr> read the cthreads variant of hurd_condition_wait, understand it,
      do the same for pthreads
    <braunr> it's easy :p
    <bddebian> For you bastards that have a clue!! ;-P
    <antrik> I definitely vote for adding it to the hurd pthreads
      implementation in glibc right away. trying to do it externally only adds
      unnecessary complications
    <antrik> and we seem to agree that this new pthread function should be
      named pthread_hurd_condition_wait(), not just hurd_condition_wait() :-)


## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-27

    <bddebian> OK this hurd_condition_wait stuff is getting ridiculous the way
      I am trying to tackle it. :(  I think I need a new tactic.
    <braunr> bddebian: what do you mean ?
    <bddebian> braunr: I know I am thick headed but I still don't get why I
      cannot implement it in libshouldbeinlibc for now but still use glibc
      pthreads internals
    <bddebian> I thought I was getting close last night by bringing in all of
      the hurd pthread headers and .c files but it just keeps getting uglier
      and uglier
    <bddebian> youpi: Just to verify.  The /usr/lib/i386-gnu/libpthread.so that
      ships with Debian now is from glibc, NOT libpthreads from Hurd right?
      Everything I need should be available in glibc's libpthreads? (Except for
      hurd_condition_wait obviously).
    <braunr> 22:35 < antrik> I definitely vote for adding it to the hurd
      pthreads implementation in glibc right away. trying to do it externally
      only adds unnecessary complications
    <youpi> bddebian: yes
    <youpi> same as antrik
    <bddebian> fuck
    <youpi> libpthread *already* provides some odd symbols (cthread
      compatibility), it can provide others
    <braunr> bddebian: don't curse :p it will be easier in the long run
    * bddebian breaks out glibc :(
    <braunr> but you should tell thomas that too
    <bddebian> braunr: I know it just adds a level of complexity that I may not
      be able to deal with
    <braunr> we wouldn't want him to waste too much time on the external
      libpthread
    <braunr> which one ?
    <bddebian> glibc for one.  hurd_condition_wait() for another which I don't
      have a great grasp on.  Remember my knowledge/skillsets are limited
      currently.
    <braunr> bddebian: tschwinge has good instructions to build glibc
    <braunr> keep your tree around and it shouldn't be long to hack on it
    <braunr> for hurd_condition_wait, i can help
    <bddebian> Oh I was thinking about using Debian glibc for now.  You think I
      should do it from git?
    <braunr> no
    <braunr> debian rules are even more reliable
    <braunr> (just don't build all the variants)
    <pinotree> `debian/rules build_libc` builds the plain i386 variant only
    <bddebian> So put pthread_hurd_cond_wait in it's own .c file or just put it
      in pt-cond-wait.c ?
    <braunr> i'd put it in pt-cond-wait.C
    <bddebian> youpi or braunr: OK, another dumb question.  What (if anything)
      should I do about hurd/hurd/signal.h.  Should I stop it from including
      cthreads?
    <youpi> it's not a dumb question. it should probably stop, yes, but there
      might be uncovered issues, which we'll have to take care of
    <bddebian> Well I know antrik suggested trying to keep compatibility but I
      don't see how you would do that
    <braunr> compability between what ?
    <braunr> and source and/or binary ?
    <youpi> hurd/signal.h implicitly including cthreads.h
    <braunr> ah
    <braunr> well yes, it has to change obviously
    <bddebian> Which will break all the cthreads stuff of course
    <bddebian> So are we agreeing on pthread_hurd_cond_wait()?
    <braunr> that's fine
    <bddebian> Ugh, shit there is stuff in glibc using cthreads??
    <braunr> like what ?
    <bddebian> hurdsig, hurdsock, setauth, dtable, ...
    <youpi> it's just using the compatibility stuff, that pthread does provide
    <bddebian> but it includes cthreads.h implicitly
    <bddebian> s/it/they in many cases
    <youpi> not a problem, we provide the functions
    <bddebian> Hmm, then what do I do about signal.h?  It includes chtreads.h
      because it uses extern struct mutex ...
    <youpi> ah, then keep the include
    <youpi> the pthread mutexes are compatible with that
    <youpi> we'll clean that afterwards
    <bddebian> arf, OK
    <youpi> that's what I meant by "uncover issues"


## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-28

    <bddebian> Well crap, glibc built but I have no symbol for
      pthread_hurd_cond_wait in libpthread.so :(
    <bddebian> Hmm, I wonder if I have to add pthread_hurd_cond_wait to
      forward.c and Versions? (Versions obviously eventually)
    <pinotree> bddebian: most probably not about forward.c, but definitely you
      have to export public stuff using Versions


## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-29

    <bddebian> braunr: http://paste.debian.net/181078/
    <braunr> ugh, inline functions :/
    <braunr> "Tell hurd_thread_cancel how to unblock us"
    <braunr> i think you need that one too :p
    <bddebian> ??
    <braunr> well, they work in pair
    <braunr> one cancels, the other notices it
    <braunr> hurd_thread_cancel is in the hurd though, iirc
    <braunr> or uh wait
    <braunr> no it's in glibc, hurd/thread-cancel.c
    <braunr> otherwise it looks like a correct reuse of the original code, but
      i need to understand the pthreads internals better to really say anything


## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-03

    <braunr> pinotree: what do you think of
      condition_implies/condition_unimplies ?
    <braunr> the work on pthread will have to replace those


## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-06

    <braunr> bddebian: so, where is the work being done ?
    <bddebian> braunr: Right now I would just like to testing getting my glibc
      with pthread_hurd_cond_wait installed on the clubber subhurd.  It is in
      /home/bdefreese/glibc-debian2
    <braunr> we need a git branch
    <bddebian> braunr: Then I want to rebuild hurd with Thomas's pthread
      patches against that new libc
    <bddebian> Aye
    <braunr> i don't remember, did thomas set a git repository somewhere for
      that ?
    <bddebian> He has one but I didn't have much luck with it since he is using
      an external libpthreads
    <braunr> i can manage the branches
    <bddebian> I was actually patching debian/hurd then adding his patches on
      top of that.  It is in /home/bdefreese/debian-hurd but he has updateds
      some stuff since then
    <bddebian> Well we need to agree on a strategy.  libpthreads only exists in
      debian/glibc
    <braunr> it would be better to have something upstream than to work on a
      debian specific branch :/
    <braunr> tschwinge: do you think it can be done 
    <braunr> ?


## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-07

    <tschwinge> braunr: You mean to create on Savannah branches for the
      libpthread conversion?  Sure -- that's what I have been suggesting to
      Barry and Thomas D. all the time.

    <bddebian> braunr: OK, so I installed my glibc with
      pthread_hurd_condition_wait in the subhurd and now I have built Debian
      Hurd with Thomas D's pthread patches.
    <braunr> bddebian: i'm not sure we're ready for tests yet :p
    <bddebian> braunr: Why not? :)
    <braunr> bddebian: a few important bits are missing
    <bddebian> braunr: Like?
    <braunr> like condition_implies
    <braunr> i'm not sure they have been handled everywhere
    <braunr> it's still interesting to try, but i bet your system won't finish
      booting
    <bddebian> Well I haven't "installed" the built hurd yet
    <bddebian> I was trying to think of a way to test a little bit first, like
      maybe ext2fs.static or something
    <bddebian> Ohh, it actually mounted the partition
    <bddebian> How would I actually "test" it?
    <braunr> git clone :p
    <braunr> building a debian package inside
    <braunr> removing the whole content after
    <braunr> that sort of things
    <bddebian> Hmm, I think I killed clubber :(
    <bddebian> Yep.. Crap! :(
    <braunr> ?
    <braunr> how did you do that ?
    <bddebian> Mounted a new partition with the pthreads ext2fs.static then did
      an apt-get source hurd to it..
    <braunr> what partition, and what mount point ?
    <bddebian> I added a new 2Gb partition on /dev/hd0s6 and set the translator
      on /home/bdefreese/part6
    <braunr> shouldn't kill your hurd
    <bddebian> Well it might still be up but killed my ssh session at the very
      least :)
    <braunr> ouch
    <bddebian> braunr: Do you have debugging enabled in that custom kernel you
      installed?  Apparently it is sitting at the debug prompt.