[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] [[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] [[!tag open_issue_glibc open_issue_libpthread]] [[!toc]] # cthreads -> pthreads Get rid of cthreads; switch to pthreads. Most of the issues raised on this page has been resolved, a few remain. ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-04-26 youpi: just to be sure: even if libpthread is compiled inside glibc (with proper symbols forwarding etc), it doesn't change that you cannot use both cthreads and pthreads in the same app, right? [[service_solahart_jakarta_selatan__082122541663/Packaging_libpthread]]. it's the same libpthread symbol forwarding does not magically resolve that libpthread lacks some libthread features :) i know, i was referring about the clash between actively using both there'll still be the issue that only one will be initialized and one that provides libc thread safety functions, etc. that's what i wanted to knew, thanks :) ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-23 So I am not sure what to do with the hurd_condition_wait stuff i would also like to know what's the real issue with cancellation here because my understanding is that libpthread already implements it does it look ok to you to make hurd_condition_timedwait return an errno code (like ETIMEDOUT and ECANCELED) ? braunr: that's what pthread_* function usually do, yes i thought they used their own code no thanks well, first, do you understand what hurd_condition_wait is ? it's similar to condition_wait or pthread_cond_wait with a subtle difference it differs from the original cthreads version by handling cancellation but it also differs from the second by how it handles cancellation instead of calling registered cleanup routines and leaving, it returns an error code (well simply !0 in this case) so there are two ways first, change the call to pthread_cond_wait Are you saying we could fix stuff to use pthread_cond_wait() properly? it's possible but not easy because you'd have to rewrite the cancellation code probably writing cleanup routines this can be hard and error prone and is useless if the code already exists so it seems reasonable to keep this hurd extension but now, as it *is* a hurd extension noone else uses braunr: BTW, when trying to figure out a tricky problem with the auth server, cfhammer digged into the RPC cancellation code quite a bit, and it's really a horrible complex monstrosity... plus the whole concept is actually broken in some regards I think -- though I don't remember the details antrik: i had the same kind of thoughts antrik: the hurd or pthreads ones ? not sure what you mean. I mean the RPC cancellation code -- which is involves thread management too ok I don't know how it is related to hurd_condition_wait though well i found two main entry points there hurd_thread_cancel and hurd_condition_wait and it didn't look that bad whereas in the pthreads code, there are many corner cases and even the standard itself looks insane well, perhaps the threading part is not that bad... it's not where we saw the problems at any rate :-) rpc interruption maybe ? oh, right... interruption is probably the right term yes that thing looks scary :)) the migration thread paper mentions some things about the problems concerning threads controllability I believe it's a very strong example for why building around standard Mach features is a bad idea, instead of adapting the primitives to our actual needs... i wouldn't be surprised if the "monstrosities" are work arounds right ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-26 Uhm, where does /usr/include/hurd/signal.h come from? head -n4 /usr/include/hurd/signal. h Ohh glibc? That makes things a little more difficult :( why ? Hurd includes it which brings in cthreads ? the hurd already brings in cthreads i don't see what you mean Not anymore :) the system cthreads header ? well it's not that difficult to trick the compiler not to include them signal.h includes cthreads.h I need to stop that just define the _CTHREADS_ macro before including anything remember that header files are normally enclosed in such macros to avoid multiple inclusions this isn't specific to cthreads converting hurd from cthreads to pthreads will make hurd and glibc break source and binary compatibility Of course reminds me of the similar issues of the late 90s Ugh, why is he using _pthread_self()? maybe because it accesses to the internals "he" ? Thomas in his modified cancel-cond.c well, you need the internals to implement it hurd_condition_wait is similar to pthread_condition_wait, except that instead of stopping the thread and calling cleanup routines, it returns 1 if cancelled not that i looked at it, but there's really no way to implement it using public api? Even if I am using glibc pthreads? unlikely God I had all of this worked out before I dropped off for a couple years.. :( this will come back :p that makes you the perfect guy to work on it ;) I can't find a pt-internal.h anywhere.. :( clone the hurd/libpthread.git repo from savannah Of course when I was doing this libpthread was still in hurd sources... So if I am using glibc pthread, why can't I use pthread_self() instead? that won't give you access to the internals OK, dumb question time. What internals? the libpthread ones that's where you will find if your thread has been cancelled or not pinotree: But isn't that assuming that I am using hurd's libpthread? if you aren't inside libpthread, no pthread_self is normally not portable you can only use it with pthread_equal so unless you *know* the internals, you can't use it and you won't be able to do much so, as it was done with cthreads, hurd_condition_wait should be close to the libpthread implementation inside, normally now, if it's too long for you (i assume you don't want to build glibc) you can just implement it outside, grabbing the internal headers for now another "not that i looked at it" question: isn't there no way to rewrite the code using that custom condwait stuff to use the standard libpthread one? and once it works, it'll get integrated pinotree: it looks very hard braunr: But the internal headers are assuming hurd libpthread which isn't in the source anymore from what i could see while working on select, servers very often call hurd_condition_wait and they return EINTR if canceleld so if you use the standard pthread_cond_wait function, your thread won't be able to return anything, unless you push the reply in a completely separate callback i'm not sure how well mig can cope with that i'd say it can't :) no really it looks ugly it's far better to have this hurd specific function and keep the existing user code as it is bddebian: you don't need the implementation, only the headers the thread, cond, mutex structures mostly I should turn to "pt-internal.h" and just put it in libshouldbelibc, no? no, that header is not installed Obviously not the "best" way pinotree: ?? pinotree: what does it change ? braunr: it == ? bddebian: you could even copy it entirely in your new cancel-cond.C and mention where it was copied from pinotree: it == pt-internal.H not being installed that he cannot include it in libshouldbelibc sources? ah, he wants to copy it? yes i want him to copy it actually :p it may be hard if there are a lot of macro options the __pthread struct changes size and content depending on other internal sysdeps headers well he needs to copy those too :p Well even if this works we are going to have to do something more "correct" about hurd_condition_wait. Maybe even putting it in glibc? sure but again, don't waste time on this for now make it *work*, then it'll get integrated Like it has already? This "patch" is only about 5 years old now... ;-P but is it complete ? Probably not :) Hmm, I wonder how many undefined references I am going to get though.. :( Shit, 5 One of which is ___pthread_self.. :( Does that mean I am actually going to have to build hurds libpthreads in libshouldbeinlibc? Seriously, do I really need ___pthread_self, __pthread_self, _pthread_self and pthread_self??? I'm still unclear what to do with cancel-cond.c. It seems to me that if I leave it the way it is currently I am going to have to either re-add libpthreads or still all of the libpthreads code under libshouldbeinlibc. then add it in libc glib glibc maybe under the name __hurd_condition_wait Shouldn't I be able to interrupt cancel-cond stuff to use glibc pthreads? interrupt ? Meaning interject like they are doing. I may be missing the point but they are just obfuscating libpthreads thread with some other "namespace"? (I know my terminology is wrong, sorry). they ? Well Thomas in this case but even in the old cthreads code, whoever wrote cancel-cond.c but they use internal thread structures .. Understood but at some level they are still just getting to a libpthread thread, no? absolutely not .. there is *no* pthread stuff in the hurd that's the problem :p Bah damnit... cthreads are directly implement on top of mach threads implemeneted* implemented* Sure but hurd_condition_wait wasn't of course it is it's almost the same as condition_wait but returns 1 if a cancelation request was made Grr, maybe I am just confusing myself because I am looking at the modified (pthreads) version instead of the original cthreads version of cancel-cond.c well if the modified version is fine, why not directly use that ? normally, hurd_condition_wait should sit next to other pthread internal stuff it could be renamed __hurd_condition_wait, i'm not sure that's irrelevant for your work anyway I am using it but it relies on libpthread and I am trying to use glibc pthreads hum what's the difference between libpthread and "glibc pthreads" ? aren't glibc pthreads the merged libpthread ? quite possibly but then I am missing something obvious. I'm getting ___pthread_self in libshouldbeinlibc but it is *UND* bddebian: with unmodified binaries ? braunr: No I added cancel-cond.c to libshouldbeinlibc And some of the pt-xxx.h headers well it's normal then i suppose braunr: So how do I get those defined without including pthreads.c from libpthreads? :) pinotree: hm... I think we should try to make sure glibc works both whith cthreads hurd and pthreads hurd. I hope that shoudn't be so hard. breaking binary compatibility for the Hurd libs is not too terrible I'd say -- as much as I'd like that, we do not exactly have a lot of external stuff depending on them :-) bddebian: *sigh* bddebian: just add cancel-cond to glibc, near the pthread code :p braunr: Wouldn't I still have the same issue? bddebian: what issue ? is hurd_condition_wait() the name of the original cthreads-based function? antrik: the original is condition_wait I'm confused is condition_wait() a standard cthreads function, or a Hurd-specific extension? antrik: as standard as you can get for something like cthreads braunr: Where hurd_condition_wait is looking for "internals" as you call them. I.E. there is no __pthread_self() in glibc pthreads :) hurd_condition_wait is the hurd-specific addition for cancelation bddebian: who cares ? bddebian: there is a pthread structure, and conditions, and mutexes you need those definitions so you either import them in the hurd braunr: so hurd_condition_wait() *is* also used in the original cthread-based implementation? or you write your code directly where they're available antrik: what do you call "original" ? not transitioned to pthreads ok, let's simply call that cthreads yes, it's used by every hurd servers virtually if not really everyone of them braunr: That is where you are losing me. If I can just use glibc pthreads structures, why can't I just use them in the new pthreads version of cancel-cond.c which is what I was originally asking.. :) you *have* to do that but then, you have to build the whole glibc * bddebian shoots himself and i was under the impression you wanted to avoid that do any standard pthread functions use identical names to any standard cthread functions? what you *can't* do is use the standard pthreads interface no, not identical but very close bddebian: there is a difference between using pthreads, which means using the standard posix interface, and using the glibc pthreads structure, which means toying with the internale implementation you *cannot* implement hurd_condition_wait with the standard posix interface, you need to use the internal structures hurd_condition_wait is actually a shurd specific addition to the threading library hurd* well, in that case, the new pthread-based variant of hurd_condition_wait() should also use a different name from the cthread-based one so it's normal to put it in that threading library, like it was done for cthreads 21:35 < braunr> it could be renamed __hurd_condition_wait, i'm not sure Except that I am trying to avoid using that threading library what ? If I am understanding you correctly it is an extention to the hurd specific libpthreads? to the threading library, whichever it is antrik: although, why not keeping the same name ? braunr: I don't think having hurd_condition_wait() for the cthread variant and __hurd_condition_wait() would exactly help clarity... I was talking about a really new name. something like pthread_hurd_condition_wait() or so braunr: to avoid confusion. to avoid accidentally pulling in the wrong one at build and/or runtime. to avoid possible namespace conflicts ok well yes, makes sense braunr: Let me state this as plainly as I hope I can. If I want to use glibc's pthreads, I have no choice but to add it to glibc? and pthread_hurd_condition_wait is a fine name bddebian: no bddebian: you either add it there bddebian: or you copy the headers defining the internal structures somewhere else and implement it there but adding it to glibc is better it's just longer in the beginning, and now i'm working on it, i'm really not sure add it to glibc directly :p That's what I am trying to do but the headers use pthread specific stuff would should be coming from glibc's pthreads yes well it's not the headers you need you need the internal structure definitions sometimes they're in c files for opacity So ___pthread_self() should eventually be an obfuscation of glibcs pthread_self(), no? i don't know what it is read the cthreads variant of hurd_condition_wait, understand it, do the same for pthreads it's easy :p For you bastards that have a clue!! ;-P I definitely vote for adding it to the hurd pthreads implementation in glibc right away. trying to do it externally only adds unnecessary complications and we seem to agree that this new pthread function should be named pthread_hurd_condition_wait(), not just hurd_condition_wait() :-) ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-27 OK this hurd_condition_wait stuff is getting ridiculous the way I am trying to tackle it. :( I think I need a new tactic. bddebian: what do you mean ? braunr: I know I am thick headed but I still don't get why I cannot implement it in libshouldbeinlibc for now but still use glibc pthreads internals I thought I was getting close last night by bringing in all of the hurd pthread headers and .c files but it just keeps getting uglier and uglier youpi: Just to verify. The /usr/lib/i386-gnu/libpthread.so that ships with Debian now is from glibc, NOT libpthreads from Hurd right? Everything I need should be available in glibc's libpthreads? (Except for hurd_condition_wait obviously). 22:35 < antrik> I definitely vote for adding it to the hurd pthreads implementation in glibc right away. trying to do it externally only adds unnecessary complications bddebian: yes same as antrik fuck libpthread *already* provides some odd symbols (cthread compatibility), it can provide others bddebian: don't curse :p it will be easier in the long run * bddebian breaks out glibc :( but you should tell thomas that too braunr: I know it just adds a level of complexity that I may not be able to deal with we wouldn't want him to waste too much time on the external libpthread which one ? glibc for one. hurd_condition_wait() for another which I don't have a great grasp on. Remember my knowledge/skillsets are limited currently. bddebian: tschwinge has good instructions to build glibc keep your tree around and it shouldn't be long to hack on it for hurd_condition_wait, i can help Oh I was thinking about using Debian glibc for now. You think I should do it from git? no debian rules are even more reliable (just don't build all the variants) `debian/rules build_libc` builds the plain i386 variant only So put pthread_hurd_cond_wait in it's own .c file or just put it in pt-cond-wait.c ? i'd put it in pt-cond-wait.C youpi or braunr: OK, another dumb question. What (if anything) should I do about hurd/hurd/signal.h. Should I stop it from including cthreads? it's not a dumb question. it should probably stop, yes, but there might be uncovered issues, which we'll have to take care of Well I know antrik suggested trying to keep compatibility but I don't see how you would do that compability between what ? and source and/or binary ? hurd/signal.h implicitly including cthreads.h ah well yes, it has to change obviously Which will break all the cthreads stuff of course So are we agreeing on pthread_hurd_cond_wait()? that's fine Ugh, shit there is stuff in glibc using cthreads?? like what ? hurdsig, hurdsock, setauth, dtable, ... it's just using the compatibility stuff, that pthread does provide but it includes cthreads.h implicitly s/it/they in many cases not a problem, we provide the functions Hmm, then what do I do about signal.h? It includes chtreads.h because it uses extern struct mutex ... ah, then keep the include the pthread mutexes are compatible with that we'll clean that afterwards arf, OK that's what I meant by "uncover issues" ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-28 Well crap, glibc built but I have no symbol for pthread_hurd_cond_wait in libpthread.so :( Hmm, I wonder if I have to add pthread_hurd_cond_wait to forward.c and Versions? (Versions obviously eventually) bddebian: most probably not about forward.c, but definitely you have to export public stuff using Versions ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-29 braunr: http://paste.debian.net/181078/ ugh, inline functions :/ "Tell hurd_thread_cancel how to unblock us" i think you need that one too :p ?? well, they work in pair one cancels, the other notices it hurd_thread_cancel is in the hurd though, iirc or uh wait no it's in glibc, hurd/thread-cancel.c otherwise it looks like a correct reuse of the original code, but i need to understand the pthreads internals better to really say anything ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-03 pinotree: what do you think of condition_implies/condition_unimplies ? the work on pthread will have to replace those ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-06 bddebian: so, where is the work being done ? braunr: Right now I would just like to testing getting my glibc with pthread_hurd_cond_wait installed on the clubber subhurd. It is in /home/bdefreese/glibc-debian2 we need a git branch braunr: Then I want to rebuild hurd with Thomas's pthread patches against that new libc Aye i don't remember, did thomas set a git repository somewhere for that ? He has one but I didn't have much luck with it since he is using an external libpthreads i can manage the branches I was actually patching debian/hurd then adding his patches on top of that. It is in /home/bdefreese/debian-hurd but he has updateds some stuff since then Well we need to agree on a strategy. libpthreads only exists in debian/glibc it would be better to have something upstream than to work on a debian specific branch :/ tschwinge: do you think it can be done ? ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-07 braunr: You mean to create on Savannah branches for the libpthread conversion? Sure -- that's what I have been suggesting to Barry and Thomas D. all the time. braunr: OK, so I installed my glibc with pthread_hurd_condition_wait in the subhurd and now I have built Debian Hurd with Thomas D's pthread patches. bddebian: i'm not sure we're ready for tests yet :p braunr: Why not? :) bddebian: a few important bits are missing braunr: Like? like condition_implies i'm not sure they have been handled everywhere it's still interesting to try, but i bet your system won't finish booting Well I haven't "installed" the built hurd yet I was trying to think of a way to test a little bit first, like maybe ext2fs.static or something Ohh, it actually mounted the partition How would I actually "test" it? git clone :p building a debian package inside removing the whole content after that sort of things Hmm, I think I killed clubber :( Yep.. Crap! :( ? how did you do that ? Mounted a new partition with the pthreads ext2fs.static then did an apt-get source hurd to it.. what partition, and what mount point ? I added a new 2Gb partition on /dev/hd0s6 and set the translator on /home/bdefreese/part6 shouldn't kill your hurd Well it might still be up but killed my ssh session at the very least :) ouch braunr: Do you have debugging enabled in that custom kernel you installed? Apparently it is sitting at the debug prompt. ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-12 hmm, it seems the hurd notion of cancellation is actually not the pthread one at all pthread_cancel merely marks a thread as being cancelled, while hurd_thread_cancel interrupts it ok, i have a pthread_hurd_cond_wait_np function in glibc ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-13 nice, i got ext2fs work with pthreads there are issues with the stack size strongly limiting the number of concurrent threads, but that's easy to fix one problem with the hurd side is the condition implications i think it should be deal separately, and before doing anything with pthreads but that's minor, the most complex part is, again, the term server other than that, it was pretty easy to do but, i shouldn't speak too soon, who knows what tricky bootstrap issue i'm gonna face ;p tschwinge: i'd like to know how i should proceed if i want a symbol in a library overriden by that of a main executable e.g. have libpthread define a default stack size, and let executables define their own if they want to change it tschwinge: i suppose i should create a weak alias in the library and a normal variable in the executable, right ? hm i'm making this too complicated don't mind that stupid question braunr: A simple variable definition would do, too, I think? braunr: Anyway, I'd first like to know why we can'T reduce the size of libpthread threads from 2 MiB to 64 KiB as libthreads had. Is that a requirement of the pthread specification? tschwinge: it's a requirement yes the main reason i see is that hurd threadvars (which are still present) rely on common stack sizes and alignment to work Mhm, I see. so for now, i'm using this approach as a hack only I'm working on phasing out threadvars, but we're not there yet. [[service_solahart_jakarta_selatan__082122541663/glibc/t/tls-threadvar]]. Yes, that's fine for the moment. tschwinge: a simple definition wouldn't work tschwinge: i resorted to a weak symbol, and see how it goes tschwinge: i supposed i need to export my symbol as a global one, otherwise making it weak makes no sense, right ? suppose* tschwinge: also, i'm not actually sure what you meant is a requirement about the stack size, i shouldn't have answered right away no there is actually no requirement i misunderstood your question hm when adding this weak variable, starting a program segfaults :( apparently on ___pthread_self, a tls variable fighting black magic begins arg, i can't manage to use that weak symbol to reduce stack sizes :( ah yes, finally git clone /path/to/glibc.git on a pthread-powered ext2fs server :> tschwinge: seems i have problems using __thread in hurd code tschwinge: they produce undefined symbols tschwinge: forget that, another mistake on my part so, current state: i just need to create another patch, for the code that is included in the debian hurd package but not in the upstream hurd repository (e.g. procfs, netdde), and i should be able to create hurd packages taht completely use pthreads ## IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-08-14