This topic is for discussion of the HTML page that should be used as a "home" page instead of the Hurd Web. We've expanded the scope of what we covered and created some new webs we'll be migrating data toward. It's a process. However even the main twiki.org site has a [standard HTML page](http://twiki.org) that orients new people to understanding the web structure of the twiki.org web site and gives basic intro summary. I would like to keep it brief and demonstrate the real meat of the various webs including some kind of contextual introduction. This is needed before browsing any twiki site with multiple "webs" which is a twiki specific concept.

-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 07 Nov 2002

Here is my proposal. Almost same "look" as hurd.gnu.org, and almost same logo but with an added "-Wiki" in another fontset. (I looked at the MetaFont code for the current Hurd logo and realised it would take me forever to construct the wiki part similarily.) Take a look at [[Main/WebHome]] for a good idea of how this (below) would look in practise, including both text and the above mentioned logo.

A very **neat** thing is a [[ATTACHURLhurdwikigencgi]] that [JAkov](http://gnufans.org/jakov/) and I did a while back. It can extract the HTML out of a topic so that it can easily be inserted into an ordinary web page using simple SSI.

Therefore I propose that this introductory page on <http://hurd.gnufans.org> holds the same information as the page on <http://hurd.gnufans.org/bin/view>, which is the Main web (a.k.a. "Users" web). This has several advantages:

1. Links in TWiki often point to the Main web for reference. This way people get to the "Home" of the Wiki and not to a bisarre page about TWiki, which they don't want to know anything about.
2. Having the same content on the front page and in the Main TWiki web provides a smooth transition for a beginner - at least he/she recognizes the content even if the interface suddenly changed.
3. The Hurd wiki administrators (currently, [[Main/GrantBow]] and [[Main/JoachimNilsson]]) can be set to be the only ones allowed to change the [[Main/WebHome]] topic.
4. We can move all administrative stuff like Registration and similar to the Main web. Freeing the Hurd web from this overhead.

The actual proposed page (using the python script and content from [[Main/WebHome]]) can be previewed at <http://hurd.gnufans.org/joachim/hurd/gnufans/>

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Welcome to [the Hurd](http://hurd.gnu.org) Wiki. It is a web based collaboration for collecting useful information about the [the GNU system](http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#TheGNUsystem). Anyone is free join in and contribute. [[TWiki/TWikiRegistration]] today and get a free GNU system from your local FTP mirror as a bonus!

A [Wiki](http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?WelcomeVisitors) "is a collaborative forum where people can share ideas and record any consensus reached on difficult issues, along with rebuttal. It changes as people come and go, as experience develops, and as opinions change." This Wiki, however, of course focuses on providing the most current information possible regarding the status and development of the Hurd.

We here present you with the currently available "sections" in this wiki:

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<dl>
  <dt><span style="background:"><font color="">GNU/Hurd</font></span><a href="http://LOCATIONHurd/WebHome">?</a></dt>
  <dd> Concerns everything directly related to the Hurd (it was the first section). </dd>
  <dt><span style="background:"><font color="">GNUmach</font></span><a href="http://LOCATIONMach/WebHome">?</a></dt>
  <dd> Topics on the GNU Mach microkernel, and the OSKit based Mach (GNUmach 2). </dd>
  <dt><span style="background:"><font color="">Mi G</font></span><a href="http://LOCATIONMig/WebHome">?</a></dt>
  <dd> Thin section on the Mach interface generator, only for developers. </dd>
  <dt><span style="background:"><font color="">GNU</font></span><a href="http://LOCATIONGNU/WebHome">?</a></dt>
  <dd> Holds all GNUish related information regarding the Hurd. </dd>
  <dt><span style="background:"><font color="">Distrib</font></span><a href="http://LOCATIONDistrib/WebHome">?</a></dt>
  <dd> Thus far only a work in progress. Debian GNU/Hurd distribution related information goes here. </dd>
</dl>

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Again, welcome to the world of Free Software and the GNU Operating System, the Hurd.

<div>
  <center><em>Remember, no question is too stupid and no problem too small -- We've all been beginners</em></center>
</div>

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As always I do too much and try too hard. My old English teacher though (who actually was from Britain) gave me one really good advice. He said: "Simplify, simplify, simplify!". I have used that throughout most of what I do, but for brainstorming in a Wiki it's really no good if I don't let other people first see what and how I think. :-)

So, let the refactoring begin!

-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 09 Nov 2002

I try to do too much as well, but that's a nice feature of the wiki. You can do stuff and then do more later. Time is becoming a constraint for me too as demonstrated on my personal [[Main/CloroxWork]] page!

OK, here's the continuation of some of our email discussion. I need to get used to USING this wiki as it's designed for our own purposes in collaborating about the site as well as for the content. I do still like email since it's a push technology rather than a pull technology.

Anyway, I still think using a standard HTML page is an important usability feature as done on the [twiki.org](http://twiki.org) site. I do like what you have done with the [[Main/WebHome]] page (as demonstrated above) very much. However I think it fails in the purpsoe that I had in mind, namely it is itself already a wiki page. For those NOT already familiar with the twiki web concept there still needs to be a teaser page, something to give them a clear description of what to expect and how to coneptualize the web concept which I think is going to do very well given the new webs we are looking at moving the [[Hurd/WebHome]] content from.

Now, perhaps you meant we should design the page on [[Main/WebHome]] and then modify it (or just save most of the HTML source code and paste it) into the HTML page that is currently the redirect from <http://hurd.gnufans.org>. is that right? I agree with that approach but I guess I'm a little confused. Should this page now be moved to the [[Main/WebHome]] perhaps?

I personally feel I still need to get up to speed on using the new Webs appropriately. It will also help to have the new Distrib web online since I feel it's an important focus to where I have/intend to contribute to the Hurd effort and will help me use the new Webs as we move away from the "one web to rule them all" [[Hurd/WebHome]] idea to a more twiki like distributed design for the whole site.

-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 10 Nov 2002

What I meant was to use the [[Main/WebHome]] for design and standard **Wiki** entrance. When users/beginners enter at <http://hurd.gnufans.org> they will see ... oh, what the heck. It's better if I just do it and show you! :)

Look at <http://hurd.gnufans.org/> and then compare it to Main.WebHome.

The page content is autogenerated and cached by my above mentioned Python script. It takes care of "pasting" the contents of the Main.WebHome topic into the index.html page on hurd.gnufans.org. It's really neat. ;-)

I will create the Distrib web asap.

-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 11 Nov 2002

I like the script very much. It's a cool feature. However I think the purposes of an [HTML front page](http://hurd.gnufans.org) and the [[Main/WebHome]] are very different.

Navigation is important. My assumption is that users understand HTML and don't understand Wiki webs.

So while your script is great, I want to immediately rip apart the content on [[Main/WebHome]]. Is that OK with you? I again want to do kind of a FAQ type front page thing _like [twiki.org](http://twiki.org)_ to give users a chance to understand the (by regular web standards) wacky navigation that works so well with TWiki webs.

The overview links across the very top and on the right side demonstrate the navigation model used for the different TWiki webs. The statistics give some idea of overall site usage. In our case we can compare the stats with the hurd.gnu.org stats in some politically correct way. :cool:

I'm not feeling like you have any idea of what I'm driving at. I must not be saying it right.

-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 15 Nov 2002

I haven't heard back from you on this so I went ahead and changed the [[Main/WebHome]] (and Python generated front page) quite a bit. I'm disturbed that I cannot make the navigation of the front page match the whole rest of the site. I'm working hard to give newbie and vetran users a consistent navigation experience. It will be very very bad for usability if the front page is not in line with the rest of the site. Can you please copy the Main.WebMenu to match the HTML on the left side of the Python generated page?

-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 20 Nov 2002

I just had a report from Peter Theoney that the front page is not viewable from Windows with Netscape 4.76! Can anyone confirm or refute this? He thinks it's a table that doesn't have a close tag. I have not yet examined the page source to see if this is true or not yet.

-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 22 Nov 2002

Both issues fixed.

The [[WebMenu]] is unified. All editing takes place from the TWiki.WebMenu - the "Edit menu" links are updated to reflect this.

The menu on <http://hurd.gnufans.org> is now auto-generated similar to the content. Only difference is that the menu is hardcoded to display TWiki.WebMenu while the page itself displays Main.WebHome. I did this so that the [[TWiki/WelcomeGuest]] and [[TWiki/TWikiRegistration]] topics would be shown in the menu. I considered them more important than the items listed under the Main web. The listed topics are what a new user **should** read before continuing with the Wiki.

I'm considering deleting much of the old discussion on this topic and moving to [[Main/WebDiscuss]]. (Trash the current Main.WebDisuss --&gt; move/rename this topic to the Main.WebDisuss to retain edit history.)

-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 23 Nov 2002