From 1dfd4e282f8fc61f1b8047d0e333d61091691e4c Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Samuel Thibault Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:58:06 +0100 Subject: , does not actually work either. 0- should, really --- faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn | 63 ------------------------------ faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn | 65 ------------------------------- faq/,release.mdwn | 15 ------- faq/,still_useful.mdwn | 57 --------------------------- faq/,translator.mdwn | 3 -- faq/0-how_many_developers.mdwn | 63 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/0-how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn | 65 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/0-release.mdwn | 15 +++++++ faq/0-still_useful.mdwn | 57 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/0-translator.mdwn | 3 ++ faq/support/,drivers.mdwn | 18 --------- faq/support/,software.mdwn | 5 --- faq/support/0-drivers.mdwn | 18 +++++++++ faq/support/0-software.mdwn | 5 +++ 14 files changed, 226 insertions(+), 226 deletions(-) delete mode 100644 faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/,release.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/,still_useful.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/,translator.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/0-how_many_developers.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/0-how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/0-release.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/0-still_useful.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/0-translator.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/support/,drivers.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/support/,software.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/0-drivers.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/0-software.mdwn (limited to 'faq') diff --git a/faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn b/faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index a96e0576..00000000 --- a/faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,63 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="How many developers are working on the GNU Hurd, and why so -few?"]] - - -# How Many Developers? - -One handful works on the core of the system in their free time, and another -handful helps with [[Debian GNU/Hurd|hurd/running/debian]] and -[[hurd/running/Arch_Hurd]] packaging. Also, an additional handful of former -developers are still available for answering technical questions, but are not -participating in the current development anymore. - -In the past (that is, a lot of years ago), the FSF did pay a few developers for -working full time on the GNU Hurd. But that was for a limited amount of time -only, and evidently, it was too little for getting the system into a -competitive state. Nowadays, it's only unpaid (apart from some -[[bounties|tag/bounty]]) and free-time volunteers' work. - -In contrast to the Linux kernel, there is no industry involvement in -development. For one, this is a good thing: independency; no conflicts of -interests. For another, it is also a bad thing: no dedicated full-time -manpower -- which matters a lot. - - -# Why So Few? - -We can only speculate. One major problem might be that the [[architectural -benefits|advantages]] are generally perceived as very abstract, with little -practical benefit. We currently don't have many tools that are actually making -use of all the possibilities. - -Another reason is that it's been taking too long. Today, most people don't -believe it will ever be ready for production use, and thus would consider -involvement a waste of time. This latter point is invalid, of course, as -learning can never be a waste of time. The same holds for the [[challenges]] -raised by the GNU Hurd -- we can only learn and improve upon working on them. - -For likely the same reasons there is no industry interest in the GNU Hurd: its -advantages are too abstract and incomplete for being of interest there. - -As for the scientific sector, the GNU Hurd projects was rather about *using* a -[[microkernel]] intead of doing research on them, for example. But, there have -been some projects and theses done, and some scientific papers published on GNU -Hurd topics, and we're generally very interested in further such projects. - - -# Attracting New Faces - -We're an open project: any interested party (*you*!) are very welcome to start -[[contributing]]. Mentoring is possible, too, to help you get started. - -Likewise, for reaching out to new developers, we're participating in [[Google's -Summer of Code program|community/gsoc]]. diff --git a/faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn b/faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 8e4c487a..00000000 --- a/faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,65 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011, 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - - -# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-05-22 - - Since apparently Hurd's aim is a very stable and transparent - system ...why aren't there any companies backing it up? - silver_hook: it's not in a state yet where it would be - commercially interesting - silver_hook: and after some epic failures in the 90s, few - companies dare to invest in microkernel development... - Isn't MacOS X running on top of Mach? - yes, but it's not a true microkernel system - for one, it's single-server, which is boring - also it uses co-location, i.e. runs all the system code in the - kernel address space -- they are separated only formally - even NT is more of a microkernel system I think - Oh, OK, I'm not that knowledgeable about kernels to know - that. - well, now you know :-) - Yup, thanks :) - most people don't know this, so don't worry - I was just wondering that it might be potentially an ideal - server system, right? - well, *potentially* it might be an ideal general-purpose system, - which includes server use... though personally I think the advantages of - the architecture are more visible in desktop use, as servers tend to be - rather streamlined, with little need for individualisation :-) - however, it still remains to be proven that true (multi-server) - microkernel operating systems actually work for general-purpose - applications... - antrik: I mean regarding hosting or virtual servers. - so far, they are only successful in the much simpler embedded - space - well, yes, the Hurd architecture in theory allows very much - flexibility regarding virtual environments... I once blogged about - that. not sure whether server applications really require that - flexibility though. I think most people are pretty happy with the various - virtualisation/container solutions available in Linux. again, the - flexibility is more relevant in the desktop space IMHO - dosn't mean it wouldn't be useful for servers too... just not as - much of a selling point I fear :-) - - -# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-09 - - gnu_srs1: regarding your question why people aren't interested in - workin on Hurd: Eric Raymond explains it pretty well in his famous - "Cathedral and Bazaar" paper - people are more likely to work on something that *almost* works - for them, and where they only have to fill in a few missing bits - the Hurd doesn't almost work for anyone - actually, you should probably reread the whole paper. it's - essentially an analysis why the Hurd failed compared to Linux - - -# [[open_issues/mission_statement]] diff --git a/faq/,release.mdwn b/faq/,release.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 878a476f..00000000 --- a/faq/,release.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,15 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled -[[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="When will the Hurd be released?"]] - -Next year. - -Save that, read about the Hurd's [[hurd/status]]. diff --git a/faq/,still_useful.mdwn b/faq/,still_useful.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index d98f98ed..00000000 --- a/faq/,still_useful.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,57 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="Why is the Hurd useful?"]] - -What are the advantages with the Hurd over Linux? (In general of course, nothing -in depth) - -> Notably, flexibility for the user: -> -> transparent ftp -> -> $ cd /ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian -> $ ls -> -> personnal filesystem -> -> $ dd < /dev/zero > myspace.img bs=1M count=1024 -> $ mke2fs myspace.img -> $ settrans myspace /hurd/ext2fs myspace.img -> $ cd myspace - ->> Just curious, but I keep seeing these (and other similar) concepts being ->> brought up as the amazing selling points of the Hurd, but all of this is ->> entirely doable now in Linux with FUSE or things like it. - ->>> Nowadays, at LAST, yes, partly. ->>> And only on machines where fuse is enabled. Is it enabled on the servers you have an account on? - ->> I'm not sure if an ftp filesystem has been implemented for FUSE yet, but its ->> definately doable; and loopback filesystems like in your second example have ->> been supported for years. - ->>> As a normal user? And establish a tap interface connected through ppp over ->>> ssh or whatever you could want to imagine? - ->> What, then, are the major selling points or benefits? - ->>> These were just examples, Linux is trying to catch up in ugly ways indeed ->>> (yes, have a look at the details of fuse, it's deemed to be inefficient). ->>> In the Hurd, it's that way from the _ground_ and there is no limitation ->>> like having to be root or ask for root to add magic lines, etc. - -> It also for instance provides userland drivers, for instance the network -> drivers are actually Linux drivers running in a separate userland process. - -> It also for instance provides very fine-grain virtualization support, such as -> VPN for only one process, etc. - -> etc. etc. The implications are really very diverse... diff --git a/faq/,translator.mdwn b/faq/,translator.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 88b5130f..00000000 --- a/faq/,translator.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,3 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta title="What is a translator?"]] - -A [good explanation](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-doc-translator) is available, translated (sic) in several languages. diff --git a/faq/0-how_many_developers.mdwn b/faq/0-how_many_developers.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a96e0576 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/0-how_many_developers.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,63 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="How many developers are working on the GNU Hurd, and why so +few?"]] + + +# How Many Developers? + +One handful works on the core of the system in their free time, and another +handful helps with [[Debian GNU/Hurd|hurd/running/debian]] and +[[hurd/running/Arch_Hurd]] packaging. Also, an additional handful of former +developers are still available for answering technical questions, but are not +participating in the current development anymore. + +In the past (that is, a lot of years ago), the FSF did pay a few developers for +working full time on the GNU Hurd. But that was for a limited amount of time +only, and evidently, it was too little for getting the system into a +competitive state. Nowadays, it's only unpaid (apart from some +[[bounties|tag/bounty]]) and free-time volunteers' work. + +In contrast to the Linux kernel, there is no industry involvement in +development. For one, this is a good thing: independency; no conflicts of +interests. For another, it is also a bad thing: no dedicated full-time +manpower -- which matters a lot. + + +# Why So Few? + +We can only speculate. One major problem might be that the [[architectural +benefits|advantages]] are generally perceived as very abstract, with little +practical benefit. We currently don't have many tools that are actually making +use of all the possibilities. + +Another reason is that it's been taking too long. Today, most people don't +believe it will ever be ready for production use, and thus would consider +involvement a waste of time. This latter point is invalid, of course, as +learning can never be a waste of time. The same holds for the [[challenges]] +raised by the GNU Hurd -- we can only learn and improve upon working on them. + +For likely the same reasons there is no industry interest in the GNU Hurd: its +advantages are too abstract and incomplete for being of interest there. + +As for the scientific sector, the GNU Hurd projects was rather about *using* a +[[microkernel]] intead of doing research on them, for example. But, there have +been some projects and theses done, and some scientific papers published on GNU +Hurd topics, and we're generally very interested in further such projects. + + +# Attracting New Faces + +We're an open project: any interested party (*you*!) are very welcome to start +[[contributing]]. Mentoring is possible, too, to help you get started. + +Likewise, for reaching out to new developers, we're participating in [[Google's +Summer of Code program|community/gsoc]]. diff --git a/faq/0-how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn b/faq/0-how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..8e4c487a --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/0-how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,65 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011, 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + + +# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-05-22 + + Since apparently Hurd's aim is a very stable and transparent + system ...why aren't there any companies backing it up? + silver_hook: it's not in a state yet where it would be + commercially interesting + silver_hook: and after some epic failures in the 90s, few + companies dare to invest in microkernel development... + Isn't MacOS X running on top of Mach? + yes, but it's not a true microkernel system + for one, it's single-server, which is boring + also it uses co-location, i.e. runs all the system code in the + kernel address space -- they are separated only formally + even NT is more of a microkernel system I think + Oh, OK, I'm not that knowledgeable about kernels to know + that. + well, now you know :-) + Yup, thanks :) + most people don't know this, so don't worry + I was just wondering that it might be potentially an ideal + server system, right? + well, *potentially* it might be an ideal general-purpose system, + which includes server use... though personally I think the advantages of + the architecture are more visible in desktop use, as servers tend to be + rather streamlined, with little need for individualisation :-) + however, it still remains to be proven that true (multi-server) + microkernel operating systems actually work for general-purpose + applications... + antrik: I mean regarding hosting or virtual servers. + so far, they are only successful in the much simpler embedded + space + well, yes, the Hurd architecture in theory allows very much + flexibility regarding virtual environments... I once blogged about + that. not sure whether server applications really require that + flexibility though. I think most people are pretty happy with the various + virtualisation/container solutions available in Linux. again, the + flexibility is more relevant in the desktop space IMHO + dosn't mean it wouldn't be useful for servers too... just not as + much of a selling point I fear :-) + + +# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-09 + + gnu_srs1: regarding your question why people aren't interested in + workin on Hurd: Eric Raymond explains it pretty well in his famous + "Cathedral and Bazaar" paper + people are more likely to work on something that *almost* works + for them, and where they only have to fill in a few missing bits + the Hurd doesn't almost work for anyone + actually, you should probably reread the whole paper. it's + essentially an analysis why the Hurd failed compared to Linux + + +# [[open_issues/mission_statement]] diff --git a/faq/0-release.mdwn b/faq/0-release.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..878a476f --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/0-release.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,15 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled +[[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="When will the Hurd be released?"]] + +Next year. + +Save that, read about the Hurd's [[hurd/status]]. diff --git a/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn b/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..d98f98ed --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,57 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="Why is the Hurd useful?"]] + +What are the advantages with the Hurd over Linux? (In general of course, nothing +in depth) + +> Notably, flexibility for the user: +> +> transparent ftp +> +> $ cd /ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian +> $ ls +> +> personnal filesystem +> +> $ dd < /dev/zero > myspace.img bs=1M count=1024 +> $ mke2fs myspace.img +> $ settrans myspace /hurd/ext2fs myspace.img +> $ cd myspace + +>> Just curious, but I keep seeing these (and other similar) concepts being +>> brought up as the amazing selling points of the Hurd, but all of this is +>> entirely doable now in Linux with FUSE or things like it. + +>>> Nowadays, at LAST, yes, partly. +>>> And only on machines where fuse is enabled. Is it enabled on the servers you have an account on? + +>> I'm not sure if an ftp filesystem has been implemented for FUSE yet, but its +>> definately doable; and loopback filesystems like in your second example have +>> been supported for years. + +>>> As a normal user? And establish a tap interface connected through ppp over +>>> ssh or whatever you could want to imagine? + +>> What, then, are the major selling points or benefits? + +>>> These were just examples, Linux is trying to catch up in ugly ways indeed +>>> (yes, have a look at the details of fuse, it's deemed to be inefficient). +>>> In the Hurd, it's that way from the _ground_ and there is no limitation +>>> like having to be root or ask for root to add magic lines, etc. + +> It also for instance provides userland drivers, for instance the network +> drivers are actually Linux drivers running in a separate userland process. + +> It also for instance provides very fine-grain virtualization support, such as +> VPN for only one process, etc. + +> etc. etc. The implications are really very diverse... diff --git a/faq/0-translator.mdwn b/faq/0-translator.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..88b5130f --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/0-translator.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ +[[!meta title="What is a translator?"]] + +A [good explanation](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-doc-translator) is available, translated (sic) in several languages. diff --git a/faq/support/,drivers.mdwn b/faq/support/,drivers.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 974fb612..00000000 --- a/faq/support/,drivers.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,18 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="What drivers does GNU/Hurd have?"]] - -Currently, for disks Mach integrates drivers from Linux 2.0 through some -[[community/gsoc/project_ideas/driver_glue_code]]. As it's very old, that -limits hardware support a lot, of course. For network boards, we use the -[[DDE]] toolkit to run linux 2.6.32 drivers in userland processes, -which provides both long-term support for new hardware and safety against driver -bugs. diff --git a/faq/support/,software.mdwn b/faq/support/,software.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 4726147c..00000000 --- a/faq/support/,software.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,5 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta title="What software is available for GNU?"]] - - * Most (3/4) packages from [Debian](http://www.debian.org/) [GNU/Linux](http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html) which aren't linux-specific ([Packages That Won't Be Ported](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-devel-debian)) are expected to work on GNU/Hurd too. See the database in . Notably, [GNOME](http://www.gnome.org), and [KDE](http://www.kde.org) work. See the [[porting/guidelines]] document for some common build problems and their solutions. - * If you can't fetch a package with "apt-get install ", try building it from source: "apt-get source && cd <package\_dir> && debian/rules binary". - * As of March 2013, 78% of Debian packages have been ported on the Hurd. Of course, bug testing is welcome. diff --git a/faq/support/0-drivers.mdwn b/faq/support/0-drivers.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..974fb612 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/0-drivers.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,18 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="What drivers does GNU/Hurd have?"]] + +Currently, for disks Mach integrates drivers from Linux 2.0 through some +[[community/gsoc/project_ideas/driver_glue_code]]. As it's very old, that +limits hardware support a lot, of course. For network boards, we use the +[[DDE]] toolkit to run linux 2.6.32 drivers in userland processes, +which provides both long-term support for new hardware and safety against driver +bugs. diff --git a/faq/support/0-software.mdwn b/faq/support/0-software.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..4726147c --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/0-software.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,5 @@ +[[!meta title="What software is available for GNU?"]] + + * Most (3/4) packages from [Debian](http://www.debian.org/) [GNU/Linux](http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html) which aren't linux-specific ([Packages That Won't Be Ported](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-devel-debian)) are expected to work on GNU/Hurd too. See the database in . Notably, [GNOME](http://www.gnome.org), and [KDE](http://www.kde.org) work. See the [[porting/guidelines]] document for some common build problems and their solutions. + * If you can't fetch a package with "apt-get install ", try building it from source: "apt-get source && cd <package\_dir> && debian/rules binary". + * As of March 2013, 78% of Debian packages have been ported on the Hurd. Of course, bug testing is welcome. -- cgit v1.2.3