From 160df317b99925c0549f79f629a4b8abcd7cfc2e Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Arne Babenhauserheide Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:39:17 +0200 Subject: Finally cleaned up the q2-ps. --- contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn | 76 ++++++++++++++--------------- 1 file changed, 36 insertions(+), 40 deletions(-) (limited to 'contributing') diff --git a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn index 778caf2d..549dabd0 100644 --- a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn +++ b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn @@ -26,72 +26,66 @@ net. While we are happy to see that there obviously is quite some interest in the GNU Hurd, we also saw some rumors and outdated information flowing around. In the following, we try to clear the situation up a bit. - * *Debian wants to replace the Linux kernel with the GNU Hurd*. {X} - **Wrong**. We plan to get into Wheezy as an additional port besides - GNU/Linux and GNU/kFreeBSD -- but we don't know whether we will make it. - It mostly depends on a lot of work which is still to be done. If you - want to help, please see our [[contributing]] page and the *to do* list - maintained on . - We’d be happy to have you on board! - - * *Java support for GNU/Hurd is in the works*. (./) **True**. Jérémie - Koenig is working on making a versatile Java programming environment - available on the GNU/Hurd as part of his [[Google Summer of Code - project|user/jkoenig/java]], focussing on OpenJDK 7. Also, we already do - have support by the GCJ/ECJ platform, but this is not fully functional, and - Jérémie is improving that, too. - - * *GNU/Hurd has no support for X.org*. {X} **Wrong**. X.Org *does* - work, and has for a long time. (Anyone remember + * **Debian GNU Hurd works to become a port in Debian**: We plan to + get into Wheezy as an additional port besides GNU/Linux and + GNU/kFreeBSD -- but we don't know whether we will make it. It + mostly depends on a lot of work which is still to be done. If you + want to help, please see our [[contributing]] page and the *to do* + list maintained on . We’d + be happy to have you on board! + + * **Java support for GNU/Hurd is nearby**: Jérémie Koenig is working + on making a versatile Java programming environment available on + the GNU/Hurd as part of his + [[Google Summer of Code project|user/jkoenig/java]], focussing on + OpenJDK 7. Also, we already do have support by the GCJ/ECJ + platform, but this is not fully functional, and Jérémie is + improving that, too. + + * **GNU/Hurd supports X.org, though a bit unstable**: X.Org *does* + work, and has worked for a long time. (Anyone remember [1998's XFree86](http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/os-support/hurd/hurd_video.c?rev=1.1&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup), by chance?) It is correct however that not a lot of advanced drivers work, due to missing DRM (Direct Rendering Manager) support and that it is [[somewhat_unstable|hurd/status]]. -[[tschwinge]] thinks that the following one is a bit questionable... - - * *The GNU/Hurd only runs on legacy hardware*. {X} **Wrong**. The GNU/Hurd - is only tested on a few platforms, but it likely runs on modern processors. - If you want to see if it works for you, just test a - [[hurd/running/Live_CD]]. - - * *Hurd only supports legacy devices:* ½ Partly True: Currently most + * **The Hurd has weaker device support than Linux**: Currently most drivers are from Linux 2.0. For network cards, Linux 2.6+ drivers are available through DDE, though (needs manual setup for now). With a good amount of work, DDE also allows porting other classes of drivers to allow using the drivers from recent Linux releases — and push them into userspace. - * *The Hurd has no SMP:* ✔ **True**: The **Hurd servers - support SMP** and **GNU Mach has SMP support**. But the latter + * **The Hurd has SMP, but Mach needs drivers for new chipsets**: The + **Hurd servers support SMP** and **GNU Mach has SMP support**. But + the latter [[does_not_yet_have_drivers_for_nowadays_chipsets|faq/smp]], so the Hurd currently can’t take advantage of multiple cores. - * *Developing a microkernel must be harder than developing a - monolithic kernel, because the Hurd took so long:* ✘ **Wrong**: - For the last decade, the Hurd had on average 5 hobby - developers. That these developers managed to get the Hurd into a - state where it actually gets not too far from the Linux kernel in - performance — which has about 1000 developers, many of them full - time — shows the efficiency of the Hurd’s design. + * **The good design of the Hurd allowed a tiny group of enthusiasts + to make it work**: For the last decade, the Hurd had on average 5 + hobby developers. That these developers managed to get the Hurd + into a state where it actually gets not too far from the Linux + kernel in performance — which has about 1000 developers, many of + them full time — shows the efficiency of the Hurd’s design. - * *Installation does not work:* ½ Partly True: Did you read the + * **Manual Installation is still challenging**: Please read the [[README|http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdimage/YES_REALLY_README.txt]] ([[file|http://xkcd.com/293/]])? Just like any beta piece of software, there are known pitfalls to avoid (or better, help to fix). You can also simply use the the [[preinstalled image|http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz]]. - * *The system is called GNU/GNU Hurd:* ✘ **Wrong**: The GNU userland - (glibc, coreutils, …) and the GNU Hurd together form the GNU - system. To avoid being mistaken for GNU/Linux, we normally use - the name GNU/Hurd or GNU Hurd. The *correct* name is simply GNU. + * **The system is called GNU**: The GNU userland (glibc, coreutils, + …) and the GNU Hurd together form the GNU system. To avoid being + mistaken for GNU/Linux, we normally use the name GNU/Hurd or GNU + Hurd. The *correct* name is simply GNU. **Test results** The results of the test from Phoronix were quite good. We expected that the microkernel design of the Hurd would have a far more severe -performance hit. +performance hit. Some possible explanations include: @@ -103,6 +97,8 @@ Note: The emulation layer should rather make the context switches worse, so it’s likely not a reason for the unexpectedly good performance. +We hope to see more tests like that in the future! + [ipc]: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.51.16 """]] -- cgit v1.2.3 From 39fc110979d8d2a0002fadb89eb6b7a77e7f4586 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: antrik Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 02:38:29 +0200 Subject: 2011-q2-ps: Replace some unnecessary non-ascii characters --- contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn | 20 ++++++++++---------- 1 file changed, 10 insertions(+), 10 deletions(-) (limited to 'contributing') diff --git a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn index 549dabd0..a6af80fb 100644 --- a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn +++ b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn @@ -31,7 +31,7 @@ In the following, we try to clear the situation up a bit. GNU/kFreeBSD -- but we don't know whether we will make it. It mostly depends on a lot of work which is still to be done. If you want to help, please see our [[contributing]] page and the *to do* - list maintained on . We’d + list maintained on . We'd be happy to have you on board! * **Java support for GNU/Hurd is nearby**: Jérémie Koenig is working @@ -54,20 +54,20 @@ In the following, we try to clear the situation up a bit. are available through DDE, though (needs manual setup for now). With a good amount of work, DDE also allows porting other classes of drivers to allow using the drivers from recent Linux - releases — and push them into userspace. + releases -- and push them into userspace. * **The Hurd has SMP, but Mach needs drivers for new chipsets**: The **Hurd servers support SMP** and **GNU Mach has SMP support**. But the latter [[does_not_yet_have_drivers_for_nowadays_chipsets|faq/smp]], so - the Hurd currently can’t take advantage of multiple cores. + the Hurd currently can't take advantage of multiple cores. * **The good design of the Hurd allowed a tiny group of enthusiasts to make it work**: For the last decade, the Hurd had on average 5 hobby developers. That these developers managed to get the Hurd into a state where it actually gets not too far from the Linux - kernel in performance — which has about 1000 developers, many of - them full time — shows the efficiency of the Hurd’s design. + kernel in performance -- which has about 1000 developers, many of + them full time -- shows the efficiency of the Hurd's design. * **Manual Installation is still challenging**: Please read the [[README|http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdimage/YES_REALLY_README.txt]] @@ -77,7 +77,7 @@ In the following, we try to clear the situation up a bit. [[preinstalled image|http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz]]. * **The system is called GNU**: The GNU userland (glibc, coreutils, - …) and the GNU Hurd together form the GNU system. To avoid being + ...) and the GNU Hurd together form the GNU system. To avoid being mistaken for GNU/Linux, we normally use the name GNU/Hurd or GNU Hurd. The *correct* name is simply GNU. @@ -94,7 +94,7 @@ Some possible explanations include: * IPCs [are no more such a problem on recent hardware][ipc]. Note: The emulation layer should rather make the context switches - worse, so it’s likely not a reason for the unexpectedly good + worse, so it's likely not a reason for the unexpectedly good performance. We hope to see more tests like that in the future! @@ -115,7 +115,7 @@ and phoronix did some [performance tests of the Hurd][phorperf], IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-08-24: < ArneBab> hurd related: I now think you were right, antrik: the hurd - rumors don’t belong into the news (tschwinge) + rumors don't belong into the news (tschwinge) < antrik> ArneBab: you mean the postscriptum as a whole, or just the wild rumours part?... < ArneBab> the whole PS @@ -133,10 +133,10 @@ IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-08-24: < antrik> and drop all unrelated speculations that popped up < antrik> BTW, it *might* be useful perhaps to actually update the original news posting with the clarifications?... - < ArneBab> we can’t do that without breaking some peoples RSS feeds + < ArneBab> we can't do that without breaking some peoples RSS feeds < antrik> note that there is another aspect to consider: the fact that several news sites picked it up is indeed genuine news by itself... - < ArneBab> that’s right, yes + < ArneBab> that's right, yes < antrik> will it really break anything? from what I heard so far it just means they will see the posting as new again, which would actually make sense in this case... -- cgit v1.2.3 From 472760ace3750cd013a1e5d6af42290600ee0a29 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: antrik Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 10:49:14 +0200 Subject: 2011-q2-ps: Mass rewording Reworked all of the text -- sometimes just rewording the sentences to improve clarity, and (hopefully) make them sound more English; sometimes slightly tweaking the statements; but also replacing some sections entirely. Fixed syntax of some links along the way. --- contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn | 173 ++++++++++++++++------------ 1 file changed, 102 insertions(+), 71 deletions(-) (limited to 'contributing') diff --git a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn index a6af80fb..eb8c2c6e 100644 --- a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn +++ b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn @@ -12,7 +12,7 @@ License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] [[!meta date="2011-07-19 23:42 UTC"]] --> -A quarter of the Hurd, Q2 of 2011, PS: *GNU Hurd Truths and Rumors*. +A quarter of the Hurd, Q2 of 2011, PS: *GNU Hurd Truths and Myths*. [[!if test="included()" then="""[[!toggle id=full_news text="Details."]][[!toggleable id=full_news text="[[!paste id=full_news]]"]]""" else=" @@ -22,14 +22,18 @@ else=" After our last *[[Quarter of the Hurd|news/2011-q2]]* has been picked up by a bunch of news sites, blogs, and so on, discussions have been running all over the -net. While we are happy to see that there obviously is quite some interest in -the GNU Hurd, we also saw some rumors and outdated information flowing around. -In the following, we try to clear the situation up a bit. - - * **Debian GNU Hurd works to become a port in Debian**: We plan to - get into Wheezy as an additional port besides GNU/Linux and - GNU/kFreeBSD -- but we don't know whether we will make it. It - mostly depends on a lot of work which is still to be done. If you +net. +We are happy to see that there is considerable interest in the Hurd; +but we also saw some misunderstandings, false rumors, and outdated information floating around. +Thus we will try to clarify the situation +regarding some of the more common misunderstandings. + + * **Debian GNU Hurd works to become a port in Debian**: + We plan to get into the next Debian release (Wheezy) + as an additional port alongside GNU/Linux and GNU/kFreeBSD -- + but we don't know yet whether we will make it. + There is still substantial work necessary to indeed become a release candidate. + If you want to help, please see our [[contributing]] page and the *to do* list maintained on . We'd be happy to have you on board! @@ -38,68 +42,95 @@ In the following, we try to clear the situation up a bit. on making a versatile Java programming environment available on the GNU/Hurd as part of his [[Google Summer of Code project|user/jkoenig/java]], focussing on - OpenJDK 7. Also, we already do have support by the GCJ/ECJ - platform, but this is not fully functional, and Jérémie is - improving that, too. - - * **GNU/Hurd supports X.org, though a bit unstable**: X.Org *does* - work, and has worked for a long time. (Anyone remember - [1998's XFree86](http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/os-support/hurd/hurd_video.c?rev=1.1&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup), - by chance?) It is correct however that not a lot of advanced - drivers work, due to missing DRM (Direct Rendering Manager) - support and that it is [[somewhat_unstable|hurd/status]]. - - * **The Hurd has weaker device support than Linux**: Currently most - drivers are from Linux 2.0. For network cards, Linux 2.6+ drivers - are available through DDE, though (needs manual setup for - now). With a good amount of work, DDE also allows porting other - classes of drivers to allow using the drivers from recent Linux - releases -- and push them into userspace. - - * **The Hurd has SMP, but Mach needs drivers for new chipsets**: The - **Hurd servers support SMP** and **GNU Mach has SMP support**. But - the latter - [[does_not_yet_have_drivers_for_nowadays_chipsets|faq/smp]], so - the Hurd currently can't take advantage of multiple cores. - - * **The good design of the Hurd allowed a tiny group of enthusiasts - to make it work**: For the last decade, the Hurd had on average 5 - hobby developers. That these developers managed to get the Hurd - into a state where it actually gets not too far from the Linux - kernel in performance -- which has about 1000 developers, many of - them full time -- shows the efficiency of the Hurd's design. - - * **Manual Installation is still challenging**: Please read the - [[README|http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdimage/YES_REALLY_README.txt]] - ([[file|http://xkcd.com/293/]])? Just like any beta piece of - software, there are known pitfalls to avoid (or better, help to - fix). You can also simply use the the - [[preinstalled image|http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz]]. - - * **The system is called GNU**: The GNU userland (glibc, coreutils, - ...) and the GNU Hurd together form the GNU system. To avoid being - mistaken for GNU/Linux, we normally use the name GNU/Hurd or GNU - Hurd. The *correct* name is simply GNU. - -**Test results** - -The results of the test from Phoronix were quite good. We expected -that the microkernel design of the Hurd would have a far more severe -performance hit. - -Some possible explanations include: - -* The tests were mostly CPU bound, so the kernel was not that - relevant. -* IPCs [are no more such a problem on recent hardware][ipc]. - -Note: The emulation layer should rather make the context switches - worse, so it's likely not a reason for the unexpectedly good - performance. - -We hope to see more tests like that in the future! - -[ipc]: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.51.16 + OpenJDK 7 -- + [partially working packages](http://jk.fr.eu.org/debian/experimental/) + are already available. + He also implemented GCJ/ECJ support, + though this is not yet fully functional either. + + + * **GNU/Hurd supports X.Org, though a bit unstable**: + X support has been present for ages + (anyone remember + [1998's XFree86](http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/os-support/hurd/hurd_video.c?rev=1.1&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup)?); + and X.Org also has been supported for a long time. + (It's even mentioned in the + [X.Org 7.2 release announcement](http://www.x.org/wiki/Other/Press/X11R72Released?action=show&redirect=PressReleases%2FX11R72Released).) + It is true though that many modern drivers do not work anymore, + as they require DRM (Direct Rendering Manager) support now; + so often only VESA is available. + Also, X on the Hurd is [[somewhat_unstable|hurd/status]]. + + * **The Hurd has weaker device support than Linux**: + Most of the drivers we use today were imported from Linux 2.0.x. + For network cards, + Linux 2.6.29 drivers are available through [[DDE|hurd/dde]] -- + however, this is not fully integrated yet, + so using these drivers needs manual setup for now. + Support for other driver types is also possible with DDE, + but it requires some not-trivial work for each additional class of drivers -- + so this can take some time to become available. + (An additional provided by DDE is that the device drivers run in userspace -- + unlike the old drivers we were using so far, + which are part of the underlying Mach microkernel.) + + * **The Hurd has SMP, but needs support for new chipsets**: + Both Mach (the microkernel used by the Hurd), + and the Hurd servers themselves come with SMP support. + However, Mach [[misses drivers for modern SMP chipsets|faq/smp]]; + and there are also some SMP-related bugs in the implementation -- + so further work is needed + for the Hurd to take advantage of modern multicore processors. + + * **Given the available manpower, the progress is very good**: + Over the past decade, + there were seldom more than half a dozen developers at any given time + hacking on the Hurd, in their spare time -- + not hundreds of paid developers like Linux has. + Considering this, the progress made is quite encouraging; + with the system being [[pretty usable|hurd/status]] for many day-to-day tasks now. + It is generally understood that the ambitious architecture of the Hurd + required a lot of effort to get it working at all -- + but the recent progress shows that once the foundations are in place, + the Hurd design indeed allows the developers to be very productive. + + * **Installation can still be challenging**: + Please [[take notice|http://xkcd.com/293/]] of the + [README file](http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdimage/YES_REALLY_README.txt) -- + just like with any software in development, + there are some known pitfalls to avoid. + (Or better yet, help to fix :-) ) + Alternatively, you can simply use the the + [preinstalled image](http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz). + + * **GNU Hurd is not the same as GNU/Hurd**: + The GNU project set out in 1983 to create a complete free operating system. + When a distribution such as Debian combines their GNU-based userland + with the GNU kernel (named `GNU Hurd`), + the result is more or less a full GNU system. + However, such third-party distributions are distinct + from what an afficial complete GNU system release would be; + and thus we often call them `GNU/Hurd` + (in contrast to `GNU/Linux` or `GNU/kFreeBSD`) for clarity. + + * **Performance**: + The [benchmarks conducted by Phoronix](http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=debian_gnu_hurd&num=1) + attested very good performance to the Hurd. + Keep in mind though that these benchmarks were almost completely CPU-bound; + so they essentially just confirm that we don't do anything stupid + regarding CPU intialisation. (Cache setup etc.) + The results would be different for benchmarks + that actually exercise the operating system functionality more. + The fact that the tests were performed in a virtualised environment, + might also have helped the results, + for example by mitigating the effects of our unoptimized I/O paths -- + which are currently the major bottleneck in most situations. + Nevertheless, these results are a hint + that the extra IPC required in microkernel systems + [doesn't necessarily hamper performace](http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.51.16) + quite as much as often believed. + We are glad to see such solid benchmarks + help dispell some of the myths around the Hurd :-) """]] -- cgit v1.2.3 From 12e9094b539ffc1d25380e9bc0f68b48f86abc43 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Arne Babenhauserheide Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 13:25:50 +0200 Subject: polish: additional *benefit* --- contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn | 2 +- 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-) (limited to 'contributing') diff --git a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn index eb8c2c6e..0415db8b 100644 --- a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn +++ b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn @@ -70,7 +70,7 @@ regarding some of the more common misunderstandings. Support for other driver types is also possible with DDE, but it requires some not-trivial work for each additional class of drivers -- so this can take some time to become available. - (An additional provided by DDE is that the device drivers run in userspace -- + (An additional benefit provided by DDE is that the device drivers run in userspace -- unlike the old drivers we were using so far, which are part of the underlying Mach microkernel.) -- cgit v1.2.3 From 3134169362bfe152b68045eb41fec20e5193d32a Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Arne Babenhauserheide Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:01:54 +0200 Subject: q2, PS: added links to some news stories. --- contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn | 12 ++++++++++-- 1 file changed, 10 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) (limited to 'contributing') diff --git a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn index 0415db8b..28e3cc9a 100644 --- a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn +++ b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn @@ -22,12 +22,20 @@ else=" After our last *[[Quarter of the Hurd|news/2011-q2]]* has been picked up by a bunch of news sites, blogs, and so on, discussions have been running all over the -net. +net ([lwn][], [reddit1][], [reddit2][], [h-online][], [slashdot][], [golem1][], [golem2][]). We are happy to see that there is considerable interest in the Hurd; but we also saw some misunderstandings, false rumors, and outdated information floating around. Thus we will try to clarify the situation regarding some of the more common misunderstandings. +[reddit1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/j2ztr/rms_mlayout_finally_shout_its_alive_at_gnuhurd_thanks/ +[lwn]: http://lwn.net/Articles/451699/ +[h-online]: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Hurd-Progresses-Debian-GNU-Hurd-by-end-o +[reddit2]: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/ipxxt/debian_now_has_concrete_plans_to_bring_gnu_hurd/ +[golem1]: http://www.golem.de/1107/84947.html +[golem2]: http://www.golem.de/1108/85430.html +[slashdot]: http://news.slasd.h.ot.org/story/11/07/14/2141229/watch-out-linux-gnu-hurd-coming + * **Debian GNU Hurd works to become a port in Debian**: We plan to get into the next Debian release (Wheezy) as an additional port alongside GNU/Linux and GNU/kFreeBSD -- @@ -127,7 +135,7 @@ regarding some of the more common misunderstandings. which are currently the major bottleneck in most situations. Nevertheless, these results are a hint that the extra IPC required in microkernel systems - [doesn't necessarily hamper performace](http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.51.16) + [doesn't necessarily hamper performance](http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.51.16) quite as much as often believed. We are glad to see such solid benchmarks help dispell some of the myths around the Hurd :-) -- cgit v1.2.3 From 8d504fbfe93458e4295addfc01bcfe46294e4f01 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Arne Babenhauserheide Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:12:36 +0200 Subject: more links. --- contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn | 23 ++++++++++++++++------- 1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 7 deletions(-) (limited to 'contributing') diff --git a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn index 28e3cc9a..ec6de0f5 100644 --- a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn +++ b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn @@ -20,13 +20,16 @@ else=" [[!cut id="full_news" text=""" -After our last *[[Quarter of the Hurd|news/2011-q2]]* has been picked up by a bunch -of news sites, blogs, and so on, discussions have been running all over the -net ([lwn][], [reddit1][], [reddit2][], [h-online][], [slashdot][], [golem1][], [golem2][]). -We are happy to see that there is considerable interest in the Hurd; -but we also saw some misunderstandings, false rumors, and outdated information floating around. -Thus we will try to clarify the situation -regarding some of the more common misunderstandings. +After our last *[[Quarter of the Hurd|news/2011-q2]]* has been picked +up by a bunch of news sites, blogs, and so on, discussions have been +running all over the net *([lwn][], [reddit1][], [reddit2][], +[h-online][], [slashdot][], [golem1][], [golem2][], +[ih][innocenthacker], [netzwelt][], [tunnelbau][], +[pro-linux][],[schmehl][], …)*. We are happy to see that there is +considerable interest in the Hurd; but we also saw some +misunderstandings, false rumors, and outdated information floating +around. Thus we will try to clarify the situation regarding some of +the more common misunderstandings. [reddit1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/j2ztr/rms_mlayout_finally_shout_its_alive_at_gnuhurd_thanks/ [lwn]: http://lwn.net/Articles/451699/ @@ -35,6 +38,12 @@ regarding some of the more common misunderstandings. [golem1]: http://www.golem.de/1107/84947.html [golem2]: http://www.golem.de/1108/85430.html [slashdot]: http://news.slasd.h.ot.org/story/11/07/14/2141229/watch-out-linux-gnu-hurd-coming +[schmehl]: http://blog.schmehl.info/2011/07/15#hurd-not-default +[innocenthacker]: http://www.innocenthacker.com/2011/07/debian-7-might-come-in-gnu-hurd-version.html +[netzwelt]: http://www.netzwelt.de/news/87551-debian-7-0-wheezy-erste-plaene-hurd-statt-linux-kernel.html +[tunnelbau]: http://blog.operation-tunnelbau.de/archives/66-Hurd-kommt-zusammen-mit-Duke-Nukem-Forever.-Fast..html +[pro-linux]: http://www.pro-linux.de/news/1/17261/gnu-hurd-will-offiziell-in-naechste-debian-version.html + * **Debian GNU Hurd works to become a port in Debian**: We plan to get into the next Debian release (Wheezy) -- cgit v1.2.3 From c6badf88cf7b926485e463a4228118660c91aec2 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Arne Babenhauserheide Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:13:51 +0200 Subject: one more link. --- contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn | 4 +++- 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-) (limited to 'contributing') diff --git a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn index ec6de0f5..791d2708 100644 --- a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn +++ b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn @@ -25,7 +25,7 @@ up by a bunch of news sites, blogs, and so on, discussions have been running all over the net *([lwn][], [reddit1][], [reddit2][], [h-online][], [slashdot][], [golem1][], [golem2][], [ih][innocenthacker], [netzwelt][], [tunnelbau][], -[pro-linux][],[schmehl][], …)*. We are happy to see that there is +[pro-linux][], [srini][], [schmehl][], …)*. We are happy to see that there is considerable interest in the Hurd; but we also saw some misunderstandings, false rumors, and outdated information floating around. Thus we will try to clarify the situation regarding some of @@ -43,6 +43,8 @@ the more common misunderstandings. [netzwelt]: http://www.netzwelt.de/news/87551-debian-7-0-wheezy-erste-plaene-hurd-statt-linux-kernel.html [tunnelbau]: http://blog.operation-tunnelbau.de/archives/66-Hurd-kommt-zusammen-mit-Duke-Nukem-Forever.-Fast..html [pro-linux]: http://www.pro-linux.de/news/1/17261/gnu-hurd-will-offiziell-in-naechste-debian-version.html +[srini]: http://srinicame.blogspot.com/2011/07/debian-gnuhurd-trial-installation.html + * **Debian GNU Hurd works to become a port in Debian**: -- cgit v1.2.3 From eee2cd991e3a45a89658fef88018eb55d4701500 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: "http://jlp.myopenid.com/" Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:34:46 +0200 Subject: Some spelling fixes --- contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn | 8 ++++---- 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-) (limited to 'contributing') diff --git a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn index 791d2708..71717c98 100644 --- a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn +++ b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn @@ -60,7 +60,7 @@ the more common misunderstandings. * **Java support for GNU/Hurd is nearby**: Jérémie Koenig is working on making a versatile Java programming environment available on the GNU/Hurd as part of his - [[Google Summer of Code project|user/jkoenig/java]], focussing on + [[Google Summer of Code project|user/jkoenig/java]], focusing on OpenJDK 7 -- [partially working packages](http://jk.fr.eu.org/debian/experimental/) are already available. @@ -128,7 +128,7 @@ the more common misunderstandings. with the GNU kernel (named `GNU Hurd`), the result is more or less a full GNU system. However, such third-party distributions are distinct - from what an afficial complete GNU system release would be; + from what an official complete GNU system release would be; and thus we often call them `GNU/Hurd` (in contrast to `GNU/Linux` or `GNU/kFreeBSD`) for clarity. @@ -137,7 +137,7 @@ the more common misunderstandings. attested very good performance to the Hurd. Keep in mind though that these benchmarks were almost completely CPU-bound; so they essentially just confirm that we don't do anything stupid - regarding CPU intialisation. (Cache setup etc.) + regarding CPU initialisations. (Cache setup etc.) The results would be different for benchmarks that actually exercise the operating system functionality more. The fact that the tests were performed in a virtualised environment, @@ -149,7 +149,7 @@ the more common misunderstandings. [doesn't necessarily hamper performance](http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.51.16) quite as much as often believed. We are glad to see such solid benchmarks - help dispell some of the myths around the Hurd :-) + help dispel some of the myths around the Hurd :-) """]] -- cgit v1.2.3 From dc407db02b922c4e5d64339b391f7fd94b66d13e Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Arne Babenhauserheide Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 15:15:14 +0200 Subject: reordering: good process last. --- contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn | 24 ++++++++++++------------ 1 file changed, 12 insertions(+), 12 deletions(-) (limited to 'contributing') diff --git a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn index 791d2708..9b5f569a 100644 --- a/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn +++ b/contributing/web_pages/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn @@ -101,18 +101,6 @@ the more common misunderstandings. so further work is needed for the Hurd to take advantage of modern multicore processors. - * **Given the available manpower, the progress is very good**: - Over the past decade, - there were seldom more than half a dozen developers at any given time - hacking on the Hurd, in their spare time -- - not hundreds of paid developers like Linux has. - Considering this, the progress made is quite encouraging; - with the system being [[pretty usable|hurd/status]] for many day-to-day tasks now. - It is generally understood that the ambitious architecture of the Hurd - required a lot of effort to get it working at all -- - but the recent progress shows that once the foundations are in place, - the Hurd design indeed allows the developers to be very productive. - * **Installation can still be challenging**: Please [[take notice|http://xkcd.com/293/]] of the [README file](http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdimage/YES_REALLY_README.txt) -- @@ -151,6 +139,18 @@ the more common misunderstandings. We are glad to see such solid benchmarks help dispell some of the myths around the Hurd :-) + * **Given the available manpower, the progress is very good**: + Over the past decade, + there were seldom more than half a dozen developers at any given time + hacking on the Hurd, in their spare time -- + not hundreds of paid developers like Linux has. + Considering this, the progress made is quite encouraging; + with the system being [[pretty usable|hurd/status]] for many day-to-day tasks now. + It is generally understood that the ambitious architecture of the Hurd + required a lot of effort to get it working at all -- + but the recent progress shows that once the foundations are in place, + the Hurd design indeed allows the developers to be very productive. + """]] - -A quarter of the Hurd, Q2 of 2011, PS: *GNU Hurd Truths and Myths*. -[[!if test="included()" then="""[[!toggle id=full_news -text="Details."]][[!toggleable id=full_news text="[[!paste id=full_news]]"]]""" -else=" -[[!paste id=full_news]]"]] - -[[!cut id="full_news" text=""" - -After our last *[[Quarter of the Hurd|news/2011-q2]]* has been picked -up by a bunch of news sites, blogs, and so on, discussions have been -running all over the net *([lwn][], [reddit1][], [reddit2][], -[h-online][], [slashdot][], [golem1][], [golem2][], -[ih][innocenthacker], [netzwelt][], [tunnelbau][], -[pro-linux][], [srini][], [schmehl][], …)*. We are happy to see that there is -considerable interest in the Hurd; but we also saw some -misunderstandings, false rumors, and outdated information floating -around. Thus we will try to clarify the situation regarding some of -the more common misunderstandings. - -[reddit1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/j2ztr/rms_mlayout_finally_shout_its_alive_at_gnuhurd_thanks/ -[lwn]: http://lwn.net/Articles/451699/ -[h-online]: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Hurd-Progresses-Debian-GNU-Hurd-by-end-o -[reddit2]: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/ipxxt/debian_now_has_concrete_plans_to_bring_gnu_hurd/ -[golem1]: http://www.golem.de/1107/84947.html -[golem2]: http://www.golem.de/1108/85430.html -[slashdot]: http://news.slasd.h.ot.org/story/11/07/14/2141229/watch-out-linux-gnu-hurd-coming -[schmehl]: http://blog.schmehl.info/2011/07/15#hurd-not-default -[innocenthacker]: http://www.innocenthacker.com/2011/07/debian-7-might-come-in-gnu-hurd-version.html -[netzwelt]: http://www.netzwelt.de/news/87551-debian-7-0-wheezy-erste-plaene-hurd-statt-linux-kernel.html -[tunnelbau]: http://blog.operation-tunnelbau.de/archives/66-Hurd-kommt-zusammen-mit-Duke-Nukem-Forever.-Fast..html -[pro-linux]: http://www.pro-linux.de/news/1/17261/gnu-hurd-will-offiziell-in-naechste-debian-version.html -[srini]: http://srinicame.blogspot.com/2011/07/debian-gnuhurd-trial-installation.html - - - - * **Debian GNU Hurd works to become a port in Debian**: - We plan to get into the next Debian release (Wheezy) - as an additional port alongside GNU/Linux and GNU/kFreeBSD -- - but we don't know yet whether we will make it. - There is still substantial work necessary to indeed become a release candidate. - If you - want to help, please see our [[contributing]] page and the *to do* - list maintained on . We'd - be happy to have you on board! - - * **Java support for GNU/Hurd is nearby**: Jérémie Koenig is working - on making a versatile Java programming environment available on - the GNU/Hurd as part of his - [[Google Summer of Code project|user/jkoenig/java]], focusing on - OpenJDK 7 -- - [partially working packages](http://jk.fr.eu.org/debian/experimental/) - are already available. - He also implemented GCJ/ECJ support, - though this is not yet fully functional either. - - - * **GNU/Hurd supports X.Org, though a bit unstable**: - X support has been present for ages - (anyone remember - [1998's XFree86](http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/os-support/hurd/hurd_video.c?rev=1.1&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup)?); - and X.Org also has been supported for a long time. - (It's even mentioned in the - [X.Org 7.2 release announcement](http://www.x.org/wiki/Other/Press/X11R72Released?action=show&redirect=PressReleases%2FX11R72Released).) - It is true though that many modern drivers do not work anymore, - as they require DRM (Direct Rendering Manager) support now; - so often only VESA is available. - Also, X on the Hurd is [[somewhat_unstable|hurd/status]]. - - * **The Hurd has weaker device support than Linux**: - Most of the drivers we use today were imported from Linux 2.0.x. - For network cards, - Linux 2.6.29 drivers are available through [[DDE|hurd/dde]] -- - however, this is not fully integrated yet, - so using these drivers needs manual setup for now ([[hurd/dde/guide]]). - Support for other driver types is also possible with DDE, - but it requires some not-trivial work for each additional class of drivers -- - so this can take some time to become available. - (An additional benefit provided by DDE is that the device drivers run in userspace -- - unlike the old drivers we were using so far, - which are part of the underlying Mach microkernel.) - - * **The Hurd has SMP, but needs support for new chipsets**: - Both Mach (the microkernel used by the Hurd), - and the Hurd servers themselves come with SMP support. - However, Mach [[misses drivers for modern SMP chipsets|faq/smp]]; - and there are also some SMP-related bugs in the implementation -- - so further work is needed - for the Hurd to take advantage of modern multicore processors. - - * **Installation can still be challenging**: - Please [[take notice|http://xkcd.com/293/]] of the - [README file](http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdimage/YES_REALLY_README.txt) -- - just like with any software in development, - there are some known pitfalls to avoid. - (Or better yet, help to fix :-) ) - Alternatively, you can simply use the the - [preinstalled image](http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz). - - * **GNU Hurd is not the same as GNU/Hurd**: - The GNU project set out in 1983 to create a complete free operating system. - When a distribution such as Debian combines their GNU-based userland - with the GNU kernel (named `GNU Hurd`), - the result is more or less a full GNU system. - However, such third-party distributions are distinct - from what an official complete GNU system release would be; - and thus we often call them `GNU/Hurd` - (similar to `GNU/Linux` or `GNU/kFreeBSD`) for clarity. - - * **Performance**: - The [benchmarks conducted by Phoronix](http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=debian_gnu_hurd&num=1) - attested very good performance to the Hurd. - Keep in mind though that these benchmarks were almost completely CPU-bound; - so they essentially just confirm that we don't do anything stupid - regarding CPU initialisations. (Cache setup etc.) - The results would be different for benchmarks - that actually exercise the operating system functionality more. - The fact that the tests were performed in a virtualised environment, - might also have helped the results, - for example by mitigating the effects of our unoptimized I/O paths -- - which are currently the major bottleneck in most situations. - Nevertheless, these results are a hint - that the extra IPC required in microkernel systems - [doesn't necessarily hamper performance](http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.51.16) - quite as much as often believed. - We are glad to see such solid benchmarks - help dispel some of the myths around the Hurd :-) - - * **Given the available manpower, the progress is very good**: - Over the past decade, - there were seldom more than half a dozen developers at any given time - hacking on the Hurd, in their spare time -- - not hundreds of paid developers like Linux has. - Considering this, the progress made is quite encouraging; - with the system being [[pretty usable|hurd/status]] for many day-to-day tasks now. - It is generally understood that the ambitious architecture of the Hurd - required a lot of effort to get it working at all -- - but the recent progress shows that once the foundations are in place, - the Hurd design indeed allows the developers to be very productive. - To see the progress over the last few years, you can have a look at our - [[news_archive|news]]. If you’ve grown interested, you can find - various ways to contribute on the [[contributing]] page. We’d be happy - to see you join in because every single hand makes a big difference in the Hurd! - -"""]] - - diff --git a/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn b/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a05d7326 --- /dev/null +++ b/news/2011-q2-ps.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,200 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + + + +A quarter of the Hurd, Q2 of 2011, PS: *GNU Hurd Truths and Myths*. +[[!if test="included()" then="""[[!toggle id=full_news +text="Details."]][[!toggleable id=full_news text="[[!paste id=full_news]]"]]""" +else=" +[[!paste id=full_news]]"]] + +[[!cut id="full_news" text=""" + +After our last *[[Quarter of the Hurd|news/2011-q2]]* has been picked +up by a bunch of news sites, blogs, and so on, discussions have been +running all over the net *([lwn][], [reddit1][], [reddit2][], +[h-online][], [slashdot][], [golem1][], [golem2][], +[ih][innocenthacker], [netzwelt][], [tunnelbau][], +[pro-linux][], [srini][], [schmehl][], …)*. We are happy to see that there is +considerable interest in the Hurd; but we also saw some +misunderstandings, false rumors, and outdated information floating +around. Thus we will try to clarify the situation regarding some of +the more common misunderstandings. + +[reddit1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/j2ztr/rms_mlayout_finally_shout_its_alive_at_gnuhurd_thanks/ +[lwn]: http://lwn.net/Articles/451699/ +[h-online]: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Hurd-Progresses-Debian-GNU-Hurd-by-end-o +[reddit2]: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/ipxxt/debian_now_has_concrete_plans_to_bring_gnu_hurd/ +[golem1]: http://www.golem.de/1107/84947.html +[golem2]: http://www.golem.de/1108/85430.html +[slashdot]: http://news.slasd.h.ot.org/story/11/07/14/2141229/watch-out-linux-gnu-hurd-coming +[schmehl]: http://blog.schmehl.info/2011/07/15#hurd-not-default +[innocenthacker]: http://www.innocenthacker.com/2011/07/debian-7-might-come-in-gnu-hurd-version.html +[netzwelt]: http://www.netzwelt.de/news/87551-debian-7-0-wheezy-erste-plaene-hurd-statt-linux-kernel.html +[tunnelbau]: http://blog.operation-tunnelbau.de/archives/66-Hurd-kommt-zusammen-mit-Duke-Nukem-Forever.-Fast..html +[pro-linux]: http://www.pro-linux.de/news/1/17261/gnu-hurd-will-offiziell-in-naechste-debian-version.html +[srini]: http://srinicame.blogspot.com/2011/07/debian-gnuhurd-trial-installation.html + + + + * **Debian GNU Hurd works to become a port in Debian**: + We plan to get into the next Debian release (Wheezy) + as an additional port alongside GNU/Linux and GNU/kFreeBSD -- + but we don't know yet whether we will make it. + There is still substantial work necessary to indeed become a release candidate. + If you + want to help, please see our [[contributing]] page and the *to do* + list maintained on . We'd + be happy to have you on board! + + * **Java support for GNU/Hurd is nearby**: Jérémie Koenig is working + on making a versatile Java programming environment available on + the GNU/Hurd as part of his + [[Google Summer of Code project|user/jkoenig/java]], focusing on + OpenJDK 7 -- + [partially working packages](http://jk.fr.eu.org/debian/experimental/) + are already available. + He also implemented GCJ/ECJ support, + though this is not yet fully functional either. + + + * **GNU/Hurd supports X.Org, though a bit unstable**: + X support has been present for ages + (anyone remember + [1998's XFree86](http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/os-support/hurd/hurd_video.c?rev=1.1&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup)?); + and X.Org also has been supported for a long time. + (It's even mentioned in the + [X.Org 7.2 release announcement](http://www.x.org/wiki/Other/Press/X11R72Released?action=show&redirect=PressReleases%2FX11R72Released).) + It is true though that many modern drivers do not work anymore, + as they require DRM (Direct Rendering Manager) support now; + so often only VESA is available. + Also, X on the Hurd is [[somewhat_unstable|hurd/status]]. + + * **The Hurd has weaker device support than Linux**: + Most of the drivers we use today were imported from Linux 2.0.x. + For network cards, + Linux 2.6.29 drivers are available through [[DDE|hurd/dde]] -- + however, this is not fully integrated yet, + so using these drivers needs manual setup for now ([[hurd/dde/guide]]). + Support for other driver types is also possible with DDE, + but it requires some not-trivial work for each additional class of drivers -- + so this can take some time to become available. + (An additional benefit provided by DDE is that the device drivers run in userspace -- + unlike the old drivers we were using so far, + which are part of the underlying Mach microkernel.) + + * **The Hurd has SMP, but needs support for new chipsets**: + Both Mach (the microkernel used by the Hurd), + and the Hurd servers themselves come with SMP support. + However, Mach [[misses drivers for modern SMP chipsets|faq/smp]]; + and there are also some SMP-related bugs in the implementation -- + so further work is needed + for the Hurd to take advantage of modern multicore processors. + + * **Installation can still be challenging**: + Please [[take notice|http://xkcd.com/293/]] of the + [README file](http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdimage/YES_REALLY_README.txt) -- + just like with any software in development, + there are some known pitfalls to avoid. + (Or better yet, help to fix :-) ) + Alternatively, you can simply use the the + [preinstalled image](http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz). + + * **GNU Hurd is not the same as GNU/Hurd**: + The GNU project set out in 1983 to create a complete free operating system. + When a distribution such as Debian combines their GNU-based userland + with the GNU kernel (named `GNU Hurd`), + the result is more or less a full GNU system. + However, such third-party distributions are distinct + from what an official complete GNU system release would be; + and thus we often call them `GNU/Hurd` + (similar to `GNU/Linux` or `GNU/kFreeBSD`) for clarity. + + * **Performance**: + The [benchmarks conducted by Phoronix](http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=debian_gnu_hurd&num=1) + attested very good performance to the Hurd. + Keep in mind though that these benchmarks were almost completely CPU-bound; + so they essentially just confirm that we don't do anything stupid + regarding CPU initialisations. (Cache setup etc.) + The results would be different for benchmarks + that actually exercise the operating system functionality more. + The fact that the tests were performed in a virtualised environment, + might also have helped the results, + for example by mitigating the effects of our unoptimized I/O paths -- + which are currently the major bottleneck in most situations. + Nevertheless, these results are a hint + that the extra IPC required in microkernel systems + [doesn't necessarily hamper performance](http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.51.16) + quite as much as often believed. + We are glad to see such solid benchmarks + help dispel some of the myths around the Hurd :-) + + * **Given the available manpower, the progress is very good**: + Over the past decade, + there were seldom more than half a dozen developers at any given time + hacking on the Hurd, in their spare time -- + not hundreds of paid developers like Linux has. + Considering this, the progress made is quite encouraging; + with the system being [[pretty usable|hurd/status]] for many day-to-day tasks now. + It is generally understood that the ambitious architecture of the Hurd + required a lot of effort to get it working at all -- + but the recent progress shows that once the foundations are in place, + the Hurd design indeed allows the developers to be very productive. + To see the progress over the last few years, you can have a look at our + [[news_archive|news]]. If you’ve grown interested, you can find + various ways to contribute on the [[contributing]] page. We’d be happy + to see you join in because every single hand makes a big difference in the Hurd! + +"""]] + + -- cgit v1.2.3