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+# <a name="Meta_Discussion_Topic_for_the_TW"> Meta Discussion Topic for the TWiki Web </a>
+
+Old discussions: [[WIKIHOMEURLTWikiWebDiscussrev12]] | [[WIKIHOMEURLTWikiWebDiscussrev16]]
+
+This topic is used for meta discussions regarding the TWiki web. We discuss content, usability features, and other related things. Comment below in blog style.
+
+----
+
+I don't know if [[Main/DerekDavies]] will read this or not, however I know you will, Joachim. Derek changed the [[WebMenu]] for the TWiki web and also (my way of some kind of include) changed the navigation on the front page. <http://hurd.gnufans.org>
+
+I guess I get sensitive over navigation issues. If a site is to act as one site then there needs to be consistency in the navigation. I also am a firm believer that TWiki in general and newbies in particular overwhelms people new to our site with too much information all at once. This is a public site. I'm trying to keep in mind that we want to be effective in getting across a message to an audience that for the most part are not TWiki fans even if they are somewhat GNU fans by way of their even knowing about and being interestd in the Hurd efforts.
+
+There's also the balance between encouraging users to participate in the content and keeping a unified site that makes sense to all. To me that indicates some degree of direction/management.
+
+So before I fly off the handle and change back the [[TWiki/WebMenu]] as well as putting security restrictions on all [[WebMenu]] topics I wanted to get some feedback as a sanity check.
+
+-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 06 Jan 2003
+
+Don't worry Grant, you're still sane. :)
+
+I completely agree to put certain topics, e.g., [[TWiki/WebMenu]] and [[Main/HurdGnuFansOrg]], under stricter editorial control.
+
+-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 07 Jan 2003
+
+Dilemma: I kinda like the [[WebMenu]] changes if they were isolated to the TWiki web. Hmmm. However I don't like them on the main page. Can you change the Python script to not make those two identical?
+
+And the right way of making that change would not be a new [[WebMenu]] but a change to a variable, right? Oh, the TWiki one IS the global one, yeah. We should lock a couple topics in any case, but only using GROUPS, not user names. Yes, you and I have over-ride in reality but using group names more clearly conveys who to talk to by if users want to talk to someone. Using the right group names also gives future flexibility if the list of names change. It's The Right Thing To Do (tm). :-)
+
+-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 09 Jan 2003
+
+Hmmm, sure I can fix the Python script. How would you like to have the front page?
+
+1. [[HurdGnuFansOrg]] plus the menu look of the Main web
+2. [[HurdGnuFansOrg]] plus the menu look of some other web
+
+(**_On a side note:_** I still think we should have [[WebIndex]], [[WebChanges]] and [[WebNotify]] in the menu of all the webs, the DEFAULTITEMS. Named Index, [[ChangeLog]] and Notify Me ...) <br />
+
+<div align="right">"Carthago delenda est!" <br />-- Cato</div>
+
+We always use group names, naturally. :)
+
+-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 13 Jan 2003
+
+We're getting down to usage style, I think. For me I NEVER access the [[WebNotify]] now that it's set. It would be clutter, promoting a one time use that probably most people may not want because they are not as interested in the site as we are. Just a Guess.
+
+I NEVER use [[WebIndex]], I always search. There's already a search in the upper right of your page.
+
+[[WebChanges]] is useful, but again if it's on a link from the [[WebHome]] topic anyway... Do you access [[WebChanges]] more than a couple times during a session to a web? Do you think others do as well?
+
+-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 14 Jan 2003
+
+You're probably right, we're talking about usage patterns. Here are my reasons, tainted they may be of my own style:
+
+* An index page is useful to a person like me, or a beginner, trying to get an overview what types of pages a web contains. I also use it to look fur unmaintained stuff, cruft, that might contain erroneous information - but that's for maintenance, so it doesn't really count. I find the index mostly useful because my brain shuts down quite frequently and finding the correct search words sometimes fail. Scanning through a list helps me such times. And, some topics aren't listed on the webhomes or adjacent pages.
+
+* [[WebChanges]] I use when I don't want to login to my mail to see what you've been doing lately. It's also very useful tool for infrequent visitors wanting to find out where people work at the moment. Many other wiki implementations have it available at all times.
+
+* Notify I agree with you that both you and me no longer use. However, beginners or infrequent users, might use it more often to register during periods when they feel thay could spare more time for a wiki - say, during holidays and similar.
+
+I guess this is wht you call a Mexican Standoff, right? :-)
+
+I propose we let the matter "sit" for a while - I need to think about your input, and ponder the "usage patterns" idea/concept you've now given me ...
+
+-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 14 Jan 2003
+
+I think you are right. We need to think about this some more and allow some time. Right now I think I have a health problem that prevents me from sleeping as much as I need to and "Doing" too much at times.
+
+I wouldn't call this a standoff, not yet. ;-)
+
+Interesting and complex issues come into scope. Perhaps we should talk about [[GnuFansUsers]] and [[GnuFansUsagePatterns]]? Whatever we do we get into discussion of issues that are more than technology, so talking through our assumptions becomes more important. Real information design is a "wicked problem" as defined by some folks like [Conklin](http://www.cognexus.org/id22.htm) and others.
+
+-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 14 Jan 2003
+
+Can one get type in something to get the [[WebTopicList]] pages back as they used to be --- viz: list the topics with no whitespace in them?
+
+[Basically, fsbot's updating of hurdwiki topics has stopped working because of a lack of index page as it used to be. Plus, making it work is not a simple matter of writing a script to hand-remove the whitespace because, now the script cannot tell the difference between "real wrb topics" and "other junk" like "Search: ...[]" on the index page. Moreover, that script is used to maintain 2 other wikis (which are usemod style etc.) and tweaking it for this particular wiki will break it for others :( . Until now, things were "compatible" amongst the wikis :)]
+
+-- [[Main/DeepakGoel]] - 16 Jan 2003
+
+Oups! :-(
+
+Introducing new features always leads to new bugs. Grant and I have had a discussion at [[TWikiDiscuss]] regarding introducing the [[SpacedWikiWordPlugin]]. I added it to the Hurd Wiki yesterday and now we have problems.
+
+Grant, are you there? Can you think of an immediate solution/workaround which could help Deego and still let us keep the [[SpacedWikiWordPlugin]]?
+
+-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 16 Jan 2003
+
+Hm, never mind, i have modified my script to work with it :) Thanks for the quick response, Joachim, and sorry to bother you all :)
+
+-- [[Main/DeepakGoel]] - 16 Jan 2003
+
+Joachim, when I get a chance I'm going to refactor some of the discussion here, moving it to something like [[WebMenuDiscuss]].
+
+Deego, thanks very much for modifying your script. You were quick to reply as well!
+
+In the meantime, I have an issue within the scope of this web and perhaps others. I've just discoved w3m and _IT ROCKS_! Why, because I am editing this with `vim` right now! It works out of the box unlike a method I tried a few days ago as described on TWiki:Codev/ somewhere. (link forthcoming) And adoption will soar when people don't have to use Xfree under Debain GNU/Hurd to get to the Hurd wiki! I'm ecstatic right now.
+
+The one problem is that the Hurd logo in ascii isn't showing up right. I've not looked into it too closely yet but I plan to also discuss w3m on twiki.org in the next while. Any suggestions?
+
+-- [[Main/GrantBow]] - 17 Jan 2003
+
+W3M is what I always use when I don't have X, it is really good!
+
+The ASCII logo problem I'm aware of. Currently I've only seen Mozilla and Lynx display it properly (Mozilla when there is something wrong with the WEBLOGO). Almost a year ago when I first developed the [[GnuSkin]] I was also patching w3m to use Lynx's alt tag parser. I worked on it very sporadically and I don't remember if I ever got it working. I could perhaps look into it again, if noone beets me to it.
+
+-- [[Main/JoachimNilsson]] - 17 Jan 2003