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+[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]]
+
+[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable
+id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this
+document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or
+any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant
+Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts.  A copy of the license
+is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation
+License|/fdl]]."]]"""]]
+
+freenode, #hurd channel, 2011-03-05:
+
+    <nixness> what about testing though?
+    <nixness> like sort of "what's missing? lets write tests for it so that
+      when someone gets to implementing it, he knows what to do. Repeat"
+      project
+    <antrik> you mean creating an automated testing framework?
+    <antrik> this is actually a task I want to add for this year, if I get
+      around to it :-)
+    <nixness> yeah I'd very much want to apply for that one
+    <nixness> cuz I've never done Kernel hacking before, but I know that with
+      the right tasks like "test VM functionality", I would be able to write up
+      the automated tests and hopefully learn more about what breaks/makes the
+      kernel
+    <nixness> (and it would make implementing the feature much less hand-wavy
+      and more correct)
+    <nixness> antrik, I believe the framework(CUnit right?) exists, but we just
+      need to write the tests.
+    <antrik> do you have prior experience implementing automated tests?
+    <nixness> lots of tests!
+    <nixness> yes, in Java mostly, but I've played around with CUnit
+    <antrik> ah, great :-)
+    <nixness> here's what I know from experience: 1) write basic tests. 2)
+      write ones that test multiple features 3) stress test [option 4)
+      benchmark and record to DB]
+    <youpi> well, what we'd rather need is to fix the issues we already know
+      from the existing testsuites :)
+
+[[GSoC project propsal|community/gsoc/project_ideas/testsuites]].
+
+    <nixness> youpi, true, and I think I should check what's available in way
+      of tests, but if the tests are "all or nothing" then it becomes really
+      hard to fix your mistakes
+    <youpi> they're not all or nothing
+    <antrik> youpi: the existing testsuites don't test specific system features
+    <youpi> libc ones do
+    <youpi> we could also check posixtestsuite which does too
+
+[[open_issues/open_posix_test_suite]].
+
+    <antrik> AFAIK libc has very few failing tests
+
+[[open_issues/glibc_testsuite]].
+
+    <youpi> err, like twenty?
+    <youpi> € grep -v '^#' expected-results-i486-gnu-libc | wc -l
+    <youpi> 67
+    <youpi> nope, even more
+    <antrik> oh, sorry, I confused it with coreutils
+    <pinotree> plus the binutils ones, i guess
+    <youpi> yes
+
+[[open_issues/binutils#weak]].
+
+    <antrik> anyways, I don't think relying on external testsuites for
+      regression testing is a good plan
+    <antrik> also, that doesn't cover unit testing at all
+    <youpi> why ?
+    <youpi> sure there can be unit testing at the translator etc. level
+    <antrik> if we want to implement test-driven development, and/or do serious
+      refactoring without too much risk, we need a test harness where we can
+      add specific tests as needed
+    <youpi> but more than often, the issues are at the libc / etc. level
+      because of a combination o fthings at the translator level, which unit
+      testing won't find out
+    * nixness yewzzz!
+    <nixness> sure unit testing can find them out. if they're good "unit" tests
+    <youpi> the problem is that you don't necessarily know what "good" means
+    <youpi> e.g. for posix correctness
+    <youpi> since it's not posix
+    <nixness> but if they're composite clever tests, then you lose that
+      granularity
+    <nixness> youpi, is that a blackbox test intended to be run at the very end
+      to check if you're posix compliant?
+    <antrik> also, if we have our own test harness, we can run tests
+      automatically as part of the build process, which is a great plus IMHO
+    <youpi> nixness: "that" = ?
+    <nixness> oh nvm, I thought there was a test stuie called "posix
+      correctness"
+    <youpi> there's the posixtestsuite yes
+    <youpi> it's an external one however
+    <youpi> antrik: being external doesn't mean we can't invoke it
+      automatically as part of the build process when it's available
+    <nixness> youpi, but being internal means it can test the inner workings of
+      certain modules that you are unsure of, and not just the interface
+    <youpi> sure, that's why I said it'd be useful too
+    <youpi> but as I said too, most bugs I've seen were not easy to find out at
+      the unit level
+    <youpi> but rather at the libc level
+    <antrik> of course we can integrate external tests if they exist and are
+      suitable. but that that doesn't preclude adding our own ones too. in
+      either case, that integration work has to be done too
+    <youpi> again, I've never said I was against internal testsuite
+    <antrik> also, the major purpose of a test suite is checking known
+      behaviour. a low-level test won't directly point to a POSIX violation;
+      but it will catch any changes in behaviour that would lead to one
+    <youpi> what I said is that it will be hard to write them tight enough to
+      find bugs
+    <youpi> again, the problem is knowing what will  lead to a POSIX violation
+    <youpi> it's long work
+    <youpi> while libc / posixtestsuite / etc. already do that
+    <antrik> *any* unexpected change in behaviour is likely to cause bugs
+      somewher
+    <youpi> but WHAT is "expected" ?
+    <youpi> THAT is the issue
+    <youpi> and libc/posixtessuite do know that
+    <youpi> at the translator level we don't really
+    <youpi> see the recent post about link()
+
+[link(dir,name) should fail with
+EPERM](http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-hurd/2011-03/msg00007.html)
+
+    <youpi> in my memory jkoenig pointed it out for a lot of such calls
+    <youpi> and that issue is clearly not known at the translator level
+    <nixness> so you're saying that the tests have to be really really
+      low-level, and work our way up?
+    <youpi> I'm saying that the translator level tests will be difficult to
+      write
+    <antrik> why isn't it known at the translator level? if it's a translator
+      (not libc) bug, than obviously the translator must return something wrong
+      at some point, and that's something we can check
+    <youpi> because you'll have to know all the details of the combinations
+      used in libc, to know whether they'll lead to posix issues
+    <youpi> antrik: sure, but how did we detect that that was unexpected
+      behavior?
+    <youpi> because of a glib test
+    <youpi> at the translator level we didn't know it was an unexpected
+      behavior
+    <antrik> gnulib actually
+    <youpi> and if you had asked me, I wouldn't have known
+    <antrik> again, we do *not* write a test suite to find existing bugs
+    <youpi> right, took one for the other
+    <youpi> doesn't really matter actually
+    <youpi> antrik: ok, I don't care then
+    <antrik> we write a test suite to prevent future bugs, or track status of
+      known bugs
+    <youpi> (don't care *enough* for now, I mean)
+    <nixness> hmm, so write something up antrik for GSoC :) and I'll be sure to
+      apply
+    <antrik> now that we know some translators return a wrong error status in a
+      particular situation, we can write a test that checks exactly this error
+      status. that way we know when it is fixed, and also when it breaks again
+    <antrik> nixness: great :-)
+    <nixness> sweet. that kind of thing would also need a db backend
+    <antrik> nixness: BTW, if you have a good idea, you can send an application
+      for it even if it's not listed among the proposed tasks...
+    <antrik> so you don't strictly need a writeup from me to apply for this :-)
+    <nixness> antrik, I'll keep that in mind, but I'll also be checking your
+      draft page
+    <nixness> oh cool :)
+    <antrik> (and it's a well known fact that those projects which students
+      proposed themselfs tend to be the most successful ones :-) )
+    * nixness draft initiated
+    <antrik> youpi: BTW, I'm surprised that you didn't mention libc testsuite
+      before... working up from there is probably a more effective plan than
+      starting with high-level test suites like Python etc...
+    <youpi> wasn't it already in the gsoc proposal?
+    <youpi> bummer
+    <antrik> nope
+
+freenode, #hurd channel, 2011-03-06:
+
+    <nixness> how's the hurd coding workflow, typically?
+
+*nixness* -> *foocraft*.
+
+    <foocraft> we're discussing how TDD can work with Hurd (or general kernel
+      development) on #osdev
+    <foocraft> so what I wanted to know, since I haven't dealt much with GNU
+      Hurd, is how do you guys go about coding, in this case
+    <tschwinge> Our current workflow scheme is... well... is...
+    <tschwinge> Someone wants to work on something, or spots a bug, then works
+      on it, submits a patch, and 0 to 10 years later it is applied.
+    <tschwinge> Roughly.
+    <foocraft> hmm so there's no indicator of whether things broke with that
+      patch
+    <foocraft> and how low do you think we can get with tests? A friend of mine
+      was telling me that with kernel dev, you really don't know whether, for
+      instance, the stack even exists, and a lot of things that I, as a
+      programmer, can assume while writing code break when it comes to writing
+      kernel code
+    <foocraft> Autotest seems promising
+
+See autotest link given above.
+
+    <foocraft> but in any case, coming up with the testing framework that
+      doesn't break when the OS itself breaks is hard, it seems
+    <foocraft> not sure if autotest isolates the mistakes in the os from
+      finding their way in the validity of the tests themselves
+    <youpi> it could be interesting to have scripts that automatically start a
+      sub-hurd to do the tests
+
+[[hurd/subhurd#unit_testing]].
+
+    <tschwinge> foocraft: To answer one of your earlier questions: you can do
+      really low-level testing.  Like testing Mach's message passing.  A
+      million times.  The questions is whether that makes sense.  And / or if
+      it makes sense to do that as part of a unit testing framework.  Or rather
+      do such things manually once you suspect an error somewhere.
+    <tschwinge> The reason for the latter may be that Mach IPC is already
+      heavily tested during normal system operation.
+    <tschwinge> And yet, there still may be (there are, surely) bugs.
+    <tschwinge> But I guess that you have to stop at some (arbitrary?) level.
+    <foocraft> so we'd assume it works, and test from there
+    <tschwinge> Otherwise you'd be implementing the exact counter-part of what
+      you're testing.
+    <tschwinge> Which may be what you want, or may be not.  Or it may just not
+      be feasible.
+    <foocraft> maybe the testing framework should have dependencies
+    <foocraft> which we can automate using make, and phony targets that run
+      tests
+    <foocraft> so everyone writes a test suite and says that it depends on A
+      and B working correctly
+    <foocraft> then it'd go try to run the tests for A etc.
+    <tschwinge> Hmm, isn't that -- on a high level -- have you have by
+      different packages?  For example, the perl testsuite depends (inherently)
+      on glibc working properly.  A perl program's testsuite depends on perl
+      working properly.
+    <foocraft> yeah, but afaik, the ordering is done by hand
+
+freenode, #hurd channel, 2011-03-07:
+
+    <antrik> actually, I think for most tests it would be better not to use a
+      subhurd... that leads precisely to the problem that if something is
+      broken, you might have a hard time running the tests at all :-)
+    <antrik> foocraft: most of the Hurd code isn't really low-level. you can
+      use normal debugging and testing methods
+    <antrik> gnumach of course *does* have some low-level stuff, so if you add
+      unit tests to gnumach too, you might run into issues :-)
+    <antrik> tschwinge: I think testing IPC is a good thing. as I already said,
+      automated testing is *not* to discover existing but unknown bugs, but to
+      prevent new ones creeping in, and tracking progress on known bugs
+    <antrik> tschwinge: I think you are confusing unit testing and regression
+      testing. http://www.bddebian.com/~hurd-web/open_issues/unit_testing/
+      talks about unit testing, but a lot (most?) of it is actually about
+      regression tests...
+    <tschwinge> antrik: That may certainly be -- I'm not at all an expert in
+      this, and just generally though that some sort of automated testing is
+      needed, and thus started collecting ideas.
+    <tschwinge> antrik: You're of course invited to fix that.
+
+IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-03-08
+
+(After discussing the [[open_issues/anatomy_of_a_hurd_system]].)
+
+    <antrik> so that's what your question is actually about?
+    <foocraft> so what I would imagine is a set of only-this-server tests for
+      each server, and then we can have fun adding composite tests
+    <foocraft> thus making debugging the composite scenarios a bit less tricky
+    <antrik> indeed
+    <foocraft> and if you were trying to pass a composite test, it would also
+      help knowing that you still didn't break the server-only test
+    <antrik> there are so many different things that can be tested... the
+      summer will only suffice to dip into this really :-)
+    <foocraft> yeah, I'm designing my proposal to focus on 1) make/use a
+      testing framework that fits the Hurd case very well 2) write some tests
+      and docs on how to write good tests
+    <antrik> well, doesn't have to be *one* framework... unit testing and
+      regression testing are quite different things, which can be covered by
+      different frameworks