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-rw-r--r--faq/how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn43
-rw-r--r--hurd/translator.mdwn3
-rw-r--r--open_issues/systemd.mdwn68
-rw-r--r--open_issues/translators_set_up_by_untrusted_users.mdwn274
4 files changed, 386 insertions, 2 deletions
diff --git a/faq/how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn b/faq/how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn
index 9fc44f25..6ca47c9a 100644
--- a/faq/how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn
+++ b/faq/how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn
@@ -8,7 +8,48 @@ Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license
is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation
License|/fdl]]."]]"""]]
-IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-09
+# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-05-22
+
+ <silver_hook> Since apparently Hurd's aim is a very stable and transparent
+ system ...why aren't there any companies backing it up?
+ <antrik> silver_hook: it's not in a state yet where it would be
+ commercially interesting
+ <antrik> silver_hook: and after some epic failures in the 90s, few
+ companies dare to invest in microkernel development...
+ <silver_hook> Isn't MacOS X running on top of Mach?
+ <antrik> yes, but it's not a true microkernel system
+ <antrik> for one, it's single-server, which is boring
+ <antrik> also it uses co-location, i.e. runs all the system code in the
+ kernel address space -- they are separated only formally
+ <antrik> even NT is more of a microkernel system I think
+ <silver_hook> Oh, OK, I'm not that knowledgeable about kernels to know
+ that.
+ <antrik> well, now you know :-)
+ <silver_hook> Yup, thanks :)
+ <antrik> most people don't know this, so don't worry
+ <silver_hook> I was just wondering that it might be potentially an ideal
+ server system, right?
+ <antrik> well, *potentially* it might be an ideal general-purpose system,
+ which includes server use... though personally I think the advantages of
+ the architecture are more visible in desktop use, as servers tend to be
+ rather streamlined, with little need for individualisation :-)
+ <antrik> however, it still remains to be proven that true (multi-server)
+ microkernel operating systems actually work for general-purpose
+ applications...
+ <silver_hook> antrik: I mean regarding hosting or virtual servers.
+ <antrik> so far, they are only successful in the much simpler embedded
+ space
+ <antrik> well, yes, the Hurd architecture in theory allows very much
+ flexibility regarding virtual environments... I once blogged about
+ that. not sure whether server applications really require that
+ flexibility though. I think most people are pretty happy with the various
+ virtualisation/container solutions available in Linux. again, the
+ flexibility is more relevant in the desktop space IMHO
+ <antrik> dosn't mean it wouldn't be useful for servers too... just not as
+ much of a selling point I fear :-)
+
+
+# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-09
<antrik> gnu_srs1: regarding your question why people aren't interested in
workin on Hurd: Eric Raymond explains it pretty well in his famous
diff --git a/hurd/translator.mdwn b/hurd/translator.mdwn
index aa8b966a..33da7afd 100644
--- a/hurd/translator.mdwn
+++ b/hurd/translator.mdwn
@@ -72,6 +72,9 @@ available.
Read about translator [[short-circuiting]].
+The [[concept|concepts]] of translators creates its own problems, too:
+[[open_issues/translators_set_up_by_untrusted_users]].
+
# Existing Translators
diff --git a/open_issues/systemd.mdwn b/open_issues/systemd.mdwn
index bf8ae70a..12a2699f 100644
--- a/open_issues/systemd.mdwn
+++ b/open_issues/systemd.mdwn
@@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
-[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]]
+[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]]
[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable
id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this
@@ -24,3 +24,69 @@ Introduction: [*Ressourcen-Verwaltung mit Control Groups (cgroups)*
Daniel Gollub, Stefan Seyfried, 2010-10-14.
Likely there's also some other porting needed.
+
+
+# IRC, OFTC, #debian-hurd, 2011-05-19
+
+ <pinotree> pochu: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.desktop - the
+ "systemd as dependency" and all the messages in it don't give me a bright
+ future for gnome on hurd...
+ <pochu> yeah, I've read the thread
+ <pochu> it's only a proposal so far... hopefully it'll be rejected, or they
+ will only accept the interfaces that other OSes can implement...
+ <pochu> we'll see
+ <pinotree> you can always help me with kde on hurd, would be nice ;)
+ <pochu> hehe
+ <pinotree> pochu: well, even if the depenency is rejected, the whole «don't
+ give a damn about non-linux and only bless linux for the "gnome os"» is a
+ bit... worrying attitude
+ <pochu> yeah... it doesn't come from all the community though
+ <pochu> I'm sure some people have always thought that way
+ <tschwinge> Or we could get systemd going? :-)
+ <pochu> good luck with that :p
+ <guillem> tschwinge: haha!? :)
+ <tschwinge> That bad?
+ <guillem> tschwinge: if you mean by that forking indefinitely then maybe
+ <guillem> tschwinge: upstream has expressely stated multiple times, no
+ interest whatsoever in any kind of portability to anything non-Linux
+ <guillem> or even older Linux versions!
+ <guillem> to the point of rejecting patches, because they "clutter" the
+ source code...
+ <tschwinge> Well, then let's ``just'' implement the Linux interfaces. :-)
+ <guillem> tschwinge: then you'll be always playing catch up
+ <guillem> tschwinge: for example several of the Linux-only things upstream
+ makes heavy use of, are pretty recent Linux-only additions to the kernel,
+ but equivalents have been present on FreeBSD for years
+ <tschwinge> Yeah. I'm half-serious, half-joking.
+ <tschwinge> I haven't looked at the systemd code at all.
+ <guillem>
+ https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/msg00447.html
+ for a list of its dependencies
+ <guillem> some are just glibc extensions though
+ <guillem> and some are IMO optional and should be conditionalized, but...
+ <guillem> pochu: I don't think that attitude is that old, there was a time
+ when Linux was not used widely, or even that functional, I think it has
+ been taking strength since the Linux Plumbers Cartel started :)
+ <guillem> as in one thing is not caring about anything non-Linux, the other
+ is outright rejecting portability fixes
+ <guillem> tschwinge: in any case, these "recent" events are "pissing me
+ off" to the point of having considered several times implementing
+ portable replacements for some of those Utopia projects, the problem as
+ always is time though :)
+ <guillem> tschwinge: and the issue is not only with systemd, upstart's
+ upstream has the same approach to portability, if you want to port it,
+ you'll have to maintain a fork
+ <pochu> let's create our own init system, make it better than anyone else,
+ and when people start switching to it, let's start using hurd-only APIs
+ :)
+ <tschwinge> We already had someone work on that. Like ten years ago. DMD.
+ Daemon Managing Daemons. <http://directory.fsf.org/project/DMD/>
+ <guillem> the real problem with that attitude is not the lack of care for
+ portabilty, the real problem is that these people are pushing for their
+ stuff all over the stack, and most of the time deprecating their own
+ stuff after a while when they have rewritten it from scratch, leaving the
+ burden of maintaining the old stuff to the other ports
+ <guillem> witness HAL, ConsoleKit, etc etc
+ <guillem> (anyway enough ranting I guess :)
+ <tschwinge> Yeah, it's true, though.
+ <pochu> agreed
diff --git a/open_issues/translators_set_up_by_untrusted_users.mdwn b/open_issues/translators_set_up_by_untrusted_users.mdwn
new file mode 100644
index 00000000..edc92796
--- /dev/null
+++ b/open_issues/translators_set_up_by_untrusted_users.mdwn
@@ -0,0 +1,274 @@
+[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]]
+
+[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable
+id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this
+document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or
+any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant
+Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license
+is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation
+License|/fdl]]."]]"""]]
+
+[[!tag open_issue_hurd]]
+
+
+# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-17
+
+ <antrik> Reventlov: this is the so-called "firmlink issue" -- though AFAIK
+ it doesn't actually apply to firmlinks ;-)
+ <antrik> the problem is that any user can in theory create and set up a
+ special translator, which will redirect to another directory, without any
+ indication that it's a link
+ <braunr> but this doesn't supersede the file system permissions, does it ?
+ <antrik> as a result, if someone runs rm -r on the directory containing
+ that translator (which could be a world-writable one such as tmp), the rm
+ -r will descend into the directory, and thus remove it with the
+ permissions of the user who ran the rm -- not the one who set up the
+ translator
+ <braunr> oh i see, when tmp gets cleared by a script run as root, your home
+ is deleted ?
+ <antrik> right
+ <antrik> of course, the workaround is trivial: just don't follow
+ translators set up by untrusted users
+ <antrik> (which is precisely the default policy for FUSE BTW)
+ <braunr> which is the general policy around memory managers in general
+ <antrik> it's just nobody cared to implement this change
+ <youpi> antrik: does rm use O_NOTRANS ?
+ <antrik> youpi: I'm pretty sure it doesn't
+ <youpi> so it's still an issue for now
+ <antrik> yes, it's still an issue. it's just not a really fundamental
+ problem as macrus claimed it to be... [sigh]
+ <youpi> well, fix rm and then you can say it's not an issue any more
+ <braunr> does it only concern rm ?
+ <antrik> youpi: rm is just an example. the problem is much more generic: a
+ malicious translator can do all kinds of harm
+ <youpi> sure
+ <youpi> it's just about tools not blindly following things
+ <antrik> the only simple and effective answer is not to follow translators
+ from untrusted users by default
+ <youpi> antrik: but then /dev/null can't be non-root
+ <braunr> depends how "untrusted users" are identified
+ <antrik> we discussed a more sophisticated solution with cfhammer, that
+ would change the way reauthentication works in lookups, and should
+ prevent these kinds of permission escalation without preventing desirable
+ uses... but it still wouldn't address DOS issues, so it would be only a
+ partial solution
+ <antrik> youpi: why should it?
+ <manuel> (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-hurd/2009-11/msg00231.html
+ for the most sophisticated solution)
+ <antrik> braunr: well, currently the permission system generally trusts
+ root and the own user. implementing something else might be tricky... not
+ sure
+ <antrik> manuel: yes, that's precisely the discussion I was referring
+ to... thanks for the link :-)
+ <youpi> antrik: depends what you mean by "follow"
+ <youpi> what DOS are you thinking of?
+ <antrik> youpi: a translator can generate endless amounts of "data"; a
+ translator can generate endless recursive directory tress; or it can just
+ never return from RPCs... all things that can do pretty much harm
+ depending on the situation
+ <antrik> filesystem clients generally trust filesystem operations to be
+ safe -- and that's just not true anymore with filesystems run by
+ untrusted users
+ <antrik> (be it Hurd translators or FUSE modules)
+ <antrik> this is a fundamental problem as marcus and neal rightly observed
+ <antrik> I just don't agree about the seriousness of the consequences
+ <antrik> I don't think not following untrusted translators really looses us
+ much
+ <youpi> EDOOMANYNEGATIONS
+ <youpi> s/D/T
+ <youpi> again, what do you mean by "following" ?
+ <youpi> always use O_NOTRANS ?
+ <tschwinge> Yes, I think.
+ <youpi> or never accept a REAUTH ?
+ <youpi> O_NOTRANS would mean ftpfs running as root, brrr
+ <youpi> it's not really true that clients always trust filesystem
+ operations
+ <youpi> the "not returning" case for instance, also appears with nfs mounts
+ <antrik> no, not always use O_NOTRANS. just be more selective about what
+ translators to follow. specifically, don't follow translators set up by
+ untrusted users. (unless explicitly requested)
+ <antrik> you can think of it as O_NO_UNTRUSTED_TRANS
+ <antrik> note that if you run ftpfs under a special user, who is not root
+ but trusted by root, this would still be fine. I hope it shouldn't be too
+ hard to implement that...
+ <antrik> as for NFS: clients generally do *not* try to catch possible
+ failures. if the NFS server doesn't return, the clients hang forever. but
+ the NFS server is generally trusted, so this is not much of a problem
+ <antrik> BTW, I guess not accepting reauth from untrusted translators would
+ also fix the privilege escalations (similar to the proposed modified
+ reauth mechanism, only more invasive); but it wouldn't fix the DoS issues
+ <ArneBab> antrik: would that also be an issue for a run translator, which
+ runs a command on read?
+ <ArneBab> youpi: couldn’t ftpfs have root drop priviledges?
+ <ArneBab> like a runas trans
+ <ArneBab> essertially su for translators to drop privs
+ <antrik> ArneBab: hm... if we can make sure that the translator was started
+ as root, and dropped privileges later, I guess that would be fine... not
+ sure how hard that is
+ <antrik> ArneBab: but I think it would be more elegant to start the
+ translators as trusted non-root users in the first place
+ <ArneBab> then i ph.avme to trust them
+ <ArneBab> deper hierarchy
+ <ArneBab> deeper
+ <ArneBab> but essertially the same
+ <ArneBab> if then someone mounted his home himself, would I be able to read
+ it?
+ <ArneBab> /home/user
+ <ArneBab> antrik: if not, that would be really non-nice
+ <antrik> ArneBab: sorry, but we simply *can't* trust a translator set up by
+ an untrusted user. if he controls it, he can make it behave maliciously
+ <antrik> we could in theory try to come up with a proxy that catches
+ problematic semantics, and presents a "safe" variant to the actual
+ clients... but that would be not-trivial, and I'm not sure how safe it
+ can be made
+ <antrik> ArneBab: of course you should always have the option to explicitly
+ say that you want to trust the translator, if you think the user doesn't
+ have malicious intentions :-)
+ <antrik> (I think nsmux would be a good way to achieve this...)
+ <braunr> unless it's really really necessary (and i don't see why it would
+ be), no design should force a process to start with privileges and drop
+ them
+ <braunr> having a set of trusted users (e.g. uid < 100) is a nice solution
+ to the problem imho
+ <braunr> or part of a group, 100 is a non-hurdish static limit
+ <ArneBab> What user is running a passive translator?
+ <braunr> passive translators are a pain for such things :/
+ <braunr> a command line and attach point are not enough to persistently
+ encode the execution context of the tranlator
+ <ArneBab> What user is running a passive translator?
+ <ArneBab> sorry
+ <braunr> the one owning the inode if i'm right
+ <ArneBab> so actually the orly problem are recursive commands, which also
+ are a problem with plain symlinks?
+ <braunr> i'm not sure
+ <ArneBab> Is thene any havoc a translator can wreak that a symlink can’t?
+ <braunr> well, as symlinks are translators, if a translator can damage
+ something, a symlink may too
+ <ArneBab> but not in Linux?
+ <braunr> err
+ <braunr> there are no translator in linux
+ <ArneBab> → commands could just treat translators as symlinks
+ <ArneBab> jepp, but it has symlinks
+ <braunr> no, this would defeat the purpose of translators :p
+ <braunr> and it's just no doable
+ <braunr> you would have recursion everywhere
+ <ArneBab> why?
+ <braunr> because every file access is sent to a translator
+ <ArneBab> hm, yes
+ <braunr> and we don't want to change commands
+ <braunr> we want to fix the design
+ <ArneBab> → only untrusted trans
+ <braunr> rather than considering them as symlinks, just consider them as
+ untrusted translators
+ <braunr> this doesn't change the semantics, only the action of accessing a
+ node or not
+ <braunr> but as antrik said, this has to be done :)
+ <braunr> the real problem would simplify to "how do you know if a
+ translator can be trusted", which is a matter of selecting the righ
+ identification strategy
+ <braunr> one strong strategy would be to have a port right copied to each
+ trusted task
+ <braunr> i wonder if one of the special ports could be used for that
+ <braunr> or if we have to add a new one
+ <ArneBab> so when I login, I would give port rights to trusted uids?
+ <braunr> no
+ <braunr> when a trusted translator starts a passive translator attached on
+ a node owned by root, it would copy its trusted right to the new task
+ <braunr> much like the device master port is passed to root tasks
+ <braunr> but i'm not sure this mechanism can be safely used to know if the
+ translator can be trusted
+ <braunr> the translator would be able to actively call services requiring
+ this capability
+ <braunr> but i guess client tasks would have to ask for the translator to
+ prove it's trusted
+ <braunr> which is a problem because the issue is to know if it can be
+ trusted before asking it anything
+ <braunr> another way is to register trusted tasks in another server, and
+ ask this server if the target translator is trusted
+ <braunr> i"m pretty sure these strategies already exist in some form on the
+ hurd
+ <ArneBab> hm
+ <braunr> does someone here have an idea why BSD-derived VMs account wiring
+ information at the high level vm_map instead of storing it in lower level
+ vm_page ?
+ <ArneBab> braunr: a translator anywhene in the FS can only be there, if the
+ creator had sufficient rights to the node, right?
+ <ArneBab> so wouldn’t it suffice to check the access rights?
+ <braunr> no
+ <braunr> ismple example: /dev/null is owned by root, but you have read
+ access to it
+ <braunr> hm that may not answer your question actually
+ <braunr> what access right would you check ?
+ <braunr> if someone creates a node with rights 777, do you still want to
+ access it ?
+ <ArneBab> no
+ <braunr> simple enough i hope :)
+ <ArneBab> arg…
+ <ArneBab> if I can write to it, I can give it a translaton
+ <ArneBab> translator
+ <braunr> but this doesn't tell you it can be trusted
+ <ArneBab> well, actually: yes, access, but not recurse
+ <braunr> the owner sets his own rights, and you can't trust the owner
+ <braunr> unless it's root, but you don't want all your translators to run
+ as root
+ <ArneBab> it can act as its owner?
+ <ArneBab> yes
+ <braunr> well, as i told you, a passive translator is started by its parent
+ translator (the one managing the file systeme node it's attached to)
+ <braunr> the new translator runs as the user owning the node
+ <braunr> (if i'm right)
+ <ArneBab> …and so on, till noot starts the first
+ <ArneBab> root
+ <braunr> ?
+ <ArneBab> root starts /, right?
+ <braunr> no
+ <braunr> gnumach starts /
+ <ArneBab> ah, right
+ <braunr> gnumach starts somefs.static
+ <braunr> which attaches at /
+ <braunr> and runs with root privileges
+ <braunr> keep in mind that unix permissions are implemented as capabilities
+ on the hurd
+ <ArneBab> → root has it / it’s root
+ <braunr> the rights you have aren't limited to those permissions
+ <ArneBab> jepp
+ <braunr> and it's not "until"
+ <ArneBab> so why should I not access a translator run by someone else? I
+ just don’t want to do any active command (recurse)… hm… can a translator
+ turn a read request into a write?
+ <braunr> that's the only problem
+ <ArneBab> program with my rights wants to read, but the translator makes it
+ write instead?
+ <braunr> no
+ <braunr> a translator can do pretty much anything with your request
+ <ArneBab> with my rights?
+ <braunr> no
+ <braunr> the most obvious example of DoS is simply not answering
+ <braunr> your process hangs
+ <braunr> considering some file system accesses, a translator could return
+ inconsistent data
+ <ArneBab> so if the translator tries to make me write instead of read, it
+ can do so only when the owner of the translaton can write to the file in
+ question?
+ <braunr> a well written application shouldn't have too much trouble dealing
+ with it but some aren't that well written
+ <braunr> this has *nothing* to do with read/write permissions
+ <braunr> you should read the critique :p
+
+[[hurd/critique]]
+
+ <ArneBab> ln -s /home/you /home/me → “why don’t you look into my home?”
+ <ArneBab> read it again, that is :)
+ <ArneBab> (has been some time since I read it)
+ <antrik> braunr: you just described the auth mechanism ;-)
+ <antrik> ArneBab: symlinks can do considerably less than translators; and
+ even these caused a lot of trouble when introduced (and still cause
+ sometimes)
+ <antrik> we can't make every application aware of translators
+ <antrik> indeed I believe we can a avoid many problems by presenting
+ various translators as symlinks -- but this is not approriate for all
+ translators
+ <antrik> it is something the translator itself decides, so it's not helpful
+ to solve security issues at all
+ <antrik> and as braunr already pointed out, this wouldn't help with DoS
+ problems